Renunciation | Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #84

Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #84 recorded on 12 March 2022 with worldwide participants.

"Renunciation has to happen in the mind first"
Babaji answers questions on the real meaning of renunciation.

0:06 Is it possible to be renounced but still continue with worldly responsibilities?
3:05 Do we renounce expectations, desires or ego?
4:38 Should we aim to remove the ego by accepting all outcomes or focus on the sadhana which gives us this ability?
6:11 Is it easier to renounce as a monk or easier in the world?
8:28 How can renunciation be viewed positively?  
11:00 Is renunciation the fruit of sadhana or a part of sadhana itself?
12:58 Are there levels of renunciation?
14:25 Is selfless service renunication?
15:32 Do we need both a longing for liberation and renunciation?
18:13 Did Babaji renounce the idea of Realisation while serving Swamiji?
24:17 Do you have to evaporate the ego to a certain point before tapas?

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Transcript

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji - online Q and A No. 84
 Renunciation
You tube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_FNz_PUPYs
Recorded: 12 March 2022

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   So on the theme of renunciation, many people are spiritual but they also have worldly responsibilities.  Is it possible to be renounced and still continue with worldly responsibilities?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, the renunciation has to happen through the mind first. Outside, like a clothing or a particular way of life, certain traditional rules and following such things, they are a way of life, can be called.  But actual renunciation has to happen in the mind.  That first thing is need to have the firm conviction that this world, this entire universe, all creation is impermanent.  And then you put an effort to fulfill your desires or whatever you want to achieve without bothering about the results. Means your happiness or your mental stability must not depend on the results – acceptance, as it comes, accept.  So that is what is actual renunciation and that is necessary to do sadhana, then the sadhana goes smoothly.  So that's how a renunciation has to happen.  If possible for anybody, if one on their own free will would like to adopt like a monkhood, a sanyasin’s life, and they can dedicate to spiritual appealing propaganda, all those things, spreading the message of the Guru, spreading the message of Self-awareness, mind control, all these things, they can totally dedicate.  You see, now what comes, where you are going to set a priority?  So you might be busy somewhere else, and you may not be able to attend to the society's needs.  If you are, say, totally preoccupied with one family, or few or one person or two persons, so your mind revolves there only; it cannot think of a larger cause.  It takes time, it requires a lot of sadhana.  So that is when finally, if you are a real sanyasin, really renounced the world, you would always think of a larger cause if at all you have to think.  Otherwise you will simply remain totally contented.

Question:   So You said about having in mind that everything is impermanent and accepting the results without expectations.  So when we talk about renouncing, is it that we renounce expectations or desires or ego, or are those three things all connected?

Babaji Maharaj:   First it’s important to renounce expectations and ego, just ready to accept whatever comes in life.  So finally, that is what it is and leave it to the absolute cause, the nature.  We have to put an effort to change whatever we can, we must put an effort, like we need knowledge of the Self; we have to put in sadhana.  So here we cannot simply renounce the efforts itself, the sadhana itself.  So that is necessary.  So often to renounce also you need sadhana.  So an understanding in the mind, practice in the mind, then only mind accepts. Otherwise mind tends to have expectations and lose hope or become disappointed, disgusted, dejected, so many things can happen - negativity.  To avoid all this you have to continuously keep doing sadhana, and then accept the things as it comes.

Question:   So should we aim to remove this ego and just focus on accepting whatever comes? Or is it that we do spiritual practice, sadhana, and that naturally dies away anyway?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, eventually it is the sadhana which gives that stability to the mind, to your own consciousness in other words, and gives a natural ability; automatically it happens like that.  Because when you realize the truth, automatically mind gives up such expectations and just becomes ready to accept whatever results come.  It can put an effort; even a yogi can put an effort.  Like we keep traveling all over the world.  We try to spread the message of meditation, Self-Awareness, Realization, all these things.  But however, we don't expect that the whole world has to become Self-Realized – ‘when I have initiated, everybody must become Self-Realized’.  It also depends on their prarabhda and their tendencies, their attitude, their faith and devotion, their seriousness in the sadhana, their ability to accept us as a guide or as a Guru, as a friend, and take things seriously is necessary.

Question:   Would You say it's easier to renounce being a monk in an ashram or is it easier to renounce in the world, or is it the same?

Babaji Maharaj:   Ah, anywhere it demands the mind’s need, because often, sometimes a person from outward might become a monk but might end up in a power struggle in ego, in jealousies, all these things, might get involved in the properties, all these things might happen.  So one has to be careful.  After receiving the what you call as the ashrama status like a monk or a householder, whatever it is, the sadhana starts; it has to happen for anybody.  That is important.  That's why probably Swamiji also used to say, Ramana Maharshi, they all have said, “If you run to caves and forests you are carrying, taking your mind also there.  That mind will be troublesome.  It won't allow you to remain peaceful or contented. It goes into craving, you start missing the world.”  So these things happen.  So stay anywhere, but you do sadhana, stay anywhere, but one hour of meditation can be very helpful to realize the truth.  So that's what gave us since childhood the vairagya - it is very important.  It is an important component of the Self-Realization.  According to Adi Shankara, His teaching gnana, bhakti, and vairagya - knowledge of the Self that is the truth. And devotion to achieve that, to remain in that awareness - being there, and vairagya; you need detachment from the unreal, from the impermanent so that you can go for the truth, a permanent entity, achieve that one because you are looking for permanent peace and happiness.  So that's what the teaching is.

Question:   So renunciation for many people can seem rather negative, focusing on all the things we are giving up like sacrifice and loss.  How can we view it positively, there is a positive aspect to that?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, there is a sentence in Bhagavad Gita, Krishna teaching ‘Tyagat shantira nantaram’, means you achieve peace only after you would have sacrificed.  So many people get confused.  They keep asking the question, “What is it that we have to give up, we have to sacrifice? Do we have to give up our homes and go to forests or into ashrams or where and what it is?”  Nothing such.  What you have to give up, what you have to sacrifice is your mind’s ego, its attachment; just ready to accept as it happens.  Today this world is there.  Tomorrow if the world is going to come to an end, we must be ready to accept that truth.  Because it is impermanent after all. Whatever has to happen, it happens.  So as long as it is there, we utilize the opportunity.

  Like as long as our body is available, we have to utilize the opportunity.  We have to earn a livelihood wherever we are, whatever we are.  Even if you want to beg alms, you understand?  So, biksha, that is the word in Sanskrit.  That was considered in ancient times very sacred, means a person who wanted to go on the path of total spirituality, accepting a monkhood, sanyasin, would not work to collect materialistic things for himself or herself.  Instead, simply at that moment, for that day, for that time’s meal, would beg alms in the society, and spend the rest of that time in sadhana, and in spreading the message of Self-Realization to create awareness about the truth of the Self, mind control and harmony, peace in the world, to overcoming all conflicts; all these things the one would teach.  So that was the recommended acceptance of a particular way of life.

Question:   Would You say that renunciation is the fruit of sadhana? Or is it part of sadhana itself?

Babaji Maharaj:   Automatically it happens when you do sadhana.  So it is the fruit of sadhana actually.  So when you do such sadhana, the mind gains that ability to understand.  See, what the things that we speak - this world as impermanent and the need to accept the results as it comes.  These are all the teachings, the ancient teachings.  Even Bhagavad Gita teaches that you have a right to put in effort, but you don't have a right to the results.  That's what it says.  So you apply willpower, remain focused, put an effort, then when the result comes you have to accept it.  So that is not in your hands.  It may happen, it may not happen.  It may happen according to your expectations or it may not happen according to your expectations.  Then finally, you have to accept.  But before that you must put an effort; karma is necessary.  That's what my opinion is.  Like, even if we had to safeguard this institution, we will put an effort, we’ll fight it out if necessary, but we remain unaffected about the results.  So that's how you have to practice.  This comes when you do sadhana, then the mind gains this ability.  Without the ability of the mind you cannot do anything.  Even to remain contented you need to have that ability in the mind, understanding, better things; ‘This is what the world is’.  So finally, it's beyond.  When it is beyond our capabilities, we accept it.

Question:   So are there sort of levels of renunciation so we can gradually progress and become more renounced?

Babaji Maharaj:   Levels means that slowly you practice sadhana as you go on.  And then slowly understand, that is the level.  Today you might be able to understand and start thinking you want to adopt a way of life.  That way of life is recommended - try to live only for the needs, don't go into a greed.  Otherwise this world is never ending.  It's a big marketing type of thing.  It always keeps happening.  Every now and then things keep coming in the market.  And you want to go for that, you want to go for that, you do lose interest in the previous one.  But you go according to your need.  If you need, if you're in the need you go and have it.  That's no problem, if you have the means.  So that's what the thing is.  So, it’s the old saying you all remember, “God give me the courage to change the things that I can change and accept the things that I cannot change and give the wisdom to know the difference.”

Question:   So is selfless service renunciation?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, when you don't have any expectations when you are serving, when you don't even need credit or a certificate from anybody, you just do it for sake of doing, serve for sake of service; and at the most think that let this service reached the lotus feet of our Master, our God.  Like that you think and you just go on.  And never bother or analyze or think, “Why I should be doing this, why not something else.”  There should not be any choice in that selfless service also.  Whatever comes you just go on doing it, simply do it.  Don't keep thinking, don't keep talking, don't keep worrying.  So, go ahead.  So that is very important.  That's what is the real sadhana, selfless service. That gives you acceptance simply.  When you have acceptance, you have renounced everything; you are a sanyasin.

Question:   In one of Your books, You put that, “Even if a person is kind, calm and good hearted, still if there is no renunciation and wellbeing for liberation, liberation becomes difficult”.  So do we need both a longing for liberation and renunciation?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, renunciation is very necessary.  Only then the mind gives up the attachment to the world and gets withdrawn, then it goes towards its real Self.  Otherwise mind never gives up this world.  It's always attached, it wants so it goes into a craving.  Only when you have a firm conviction that this world is impermanent, it cannot give peace to anybody, permanent peace is what peace means; twelve months twenty-four hours-type.  That's what I used to think as a youngster.  As a small boy also I used to be thinking like this.  So that is important.  If you need that one you have to understand, then you will go for sadhana.  Both cannot happen.  As even Jesus said, “You cannot serve both masters” - either this or that type of thing, finally when you have to achieve Self-Realization. But we don't want to create a panic for anybody.  Whatever you are, you remain in the world, remain in your way of life, and you do a little bit of meditation so that you will have peace and control of your mind.  And you can restrain yourself and you will go according to your needs; you won't be greedy at least.  Finally, if you want to go for Self-Realization, then that Self-Realization demands that you give up attachments mentally.  Simply by giving up physical attachments will not be enough.  Ego can always crop up.  

The idea should not be there that, “I am a Self-realized person, there is no individuality at all.  Simply that has happened and you are there. You have simply gone into a sound sleep.  You won’t boast, “I'm soundly sleeping, man.”  You won't be boasting or you don't want credit or you don't want anybody’s certificate.  You just go to sound sleeping.  That's it.  That is what Self-Realization is - you remain in that awareness at all times.

Question:   So, during the twenty years You served Swamiji, there was a time when you wanted liberation, you wanted Realization, and then you gave up that idea so that you could just serve Swamiji.  But that was still a renunciation; You actually renounced the desire for liberation at that point?

Babaji Maharaj:   Well, I can say when I came to Ashram and when I saw Swamiji, and thought that “I want Swamiji, I must go to Him,” there was no such idea of a Self-Realization also at that moment when I came to Ashram particularly.  Simply it came that I wanted Swamiji.  I myself didn't know the meaning of what it was that I wanted, like that.  But after I came here, you know, I heard about a disciple of Swamiji sitting for tapas in a town of southern India, Anantapur.  So, we heard a lot of stories about him.  He was used to go to trance and then finally one day he was made to sit for tapas and he sat.  So, that when slowly, that resolution, that idea started coming to mind, “Oh, we can also do tapas.  Even after doing tapas, we can serve Swamiji.” Because that was the basic idea, to serve Swamiji, serve my Guru; “that's important to be at the lotus feet” was there.  So that's when probably that resolution, that desire set in and started cropping up.  And we started praying for that also.  So that's how.  But after four years, that person got up and ran away and got married.  He couldn't continue in the tapas; mental stability got disturbed and he got attracted to the worldly life.  So that was a bit disturbing for me also.  But however, finally Swamiji removed that.

   When I gave Him the vibhuti on my birthday in 1978 I was twenty-four.  I went to His room in the morning, I gave Him milk, and then gave Him a piece of vibhuti to bless.  “Why do you need this vibhuti?”  As I told, “I want to do tapas”, He said, “Can this vibhuti make you do tapas?”  I said, “I have faith Swamiji, You just bless.  The rest will happen automatically.”  “Hey look, if you do tapas now, you might become a yogi for outward appearance, everybody might think. But you will have ego and you will go away from me unnecessarily.  So you will want to become famous and you will go for public, everybody wanting that they all should become your devotee.  That type of ideas will come and you will start talking nonsense to attract people.”  So then I said, “Then I don't want any tapas in that case.” Instantly I said without any second thought.  Because the Swamiji and serving Him idea was the foremost and strongly sitting.  Above that, if that was going to be disturbed, no tapas also needed, no Self-Realization also needed, nothing like that.  

Then Swamiji said, “When time is ripe, it's in due course of time, at that time, even if you don't want it will come.”  He used to tell that “When you serve selflessly, the fruits of such service will get converted into sadhana and your mind will recede.  When it recedes it will go towards the Divine, then the Divine’s grace will come automatically, then you will be made to go for tapas.  So wait until then if it's okay for you.”  I said, “All right.”  Then I forgot, then continued serving simply, without bothering why I should do this, why I should look after mentally challenged, why I should be local guardian for devotees’ children, bringing them from the school and doing all odd jobs one would never think. Because I used to have a dress as a brahmachari, a white dhoti and white kurta with a clean-shaven head.  So anybody who would have looked at me, “Hey, this person seems to be an ashram resident but he is doing all these odd jobs.”  But even once when I was bringing vegetables in a local city bus, one person asked, “Don't you think that you have to do all these works, you have come to an ashram from home,  instead you could have stayed in the home itself?”  I said, “I didn't come to ashram to escape work or responsibilities.  Simply I wanted to adopt this way of life.  I liked, and I have no regrets.  I love this way of life.  I'm happy to do anything for this.  It is for a larger cause.  If we couldn't look after one mother, here I could look after so many mothers.  I could give peace and happiness to so many others, helping them.  So that way of life we wanted.  So there is no regrets.” Like that we continued.  So that helped us our mind to become quiet and recede, never analyzed, never tried to judge anything, went on doing.  So one day after Swamiji dropped His physical body, the vision came and made me to sit for tapas in the room.  And those five years became very easy.  It was just like one step, final step to take.  Because the mind already had receded, it was gone. It was in the awareness of that spirit.  So that was how things became quite easy.

Question:   It's interesting You said that Swamiji warned You of doing tapas before your mind is ready as You could still have ego.  So, you have to evaporate the ego to the right point before tapas?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, that was what always we learned from Swamiji; whatever you do in this world, purpose is always important.  Whether you talk, whether you eat or whether you do any other work.  And finally when you do meditation and when you do tapas, the purpose is important.  So like, remember that story of that other lady, a disciple of Swamiji who did tapas.  But all the twelve years she was having in the mind that she needed to marry Swamiji, no Self-Realization or just quietness didn't happen.  

   Swamiji was very innocent.  At the age of fourteen when He was made to sit for tapas, He just went on watching without any idea why He was watching, and He just went on watching; listened to the command of the Jangama sage.  So then His mind became quiet. It got totally purified and pure consciousness, then He gained that awareness of the Self.  That was the Self, and He merged with that one and there was no other desire at all.  When Divine appeared in a form also, at that time also He didn't have any desire to ask the Divine.  Instead He asked the Divine, “If you have anything for me to do in this world for you, I'm happy to do as long as this body is available for me.”  So like, that type of vairagya, that type of understanding, contentment, Self-Realization had come to Swamiji.  So, naturally Swamiji thought anybody who do tapas would gain this, but that was not to be.  Some went with some other ideas, and they kept it in their mind.  So after twelve years also the same idea was remaining there.  “Now, I have done twelve years tapas, now you get married”.  So, that type of thing was there.  So that is very, very important - purpose.  

   That is how like Sri Krishna also has taught in Mahabharata, during the war times particularly, telling a truth or telling a lie is not that important as the purpose.  You tell a lie, you are able to save ten lives, you are able to save the society, you are able to save a larger cause;  that is dharma, that is your duty.  You tell a truth but you could be harming ten lives, you are harming the society, you are harming a country, like a larger cause.  So that is adharma, that is not your duty.  So this wisdom needs to be applied.  It's not easy for everybody to understand these teachings of Sri Krishna.  

So even now, many people when they ask, they try to ask me, “Was Krishna only a politician?”  Not at all simply a politician.  It is not possible to understand Krishna.  He was one of the greatest assets of this creation, this country, that great Self-Realized person. He taught such beautiful teachings which is so difficult to understand.  Like in a religion, we tell it is of three-fold, three responsibilities.  You do sadhana so that you can keep your physical health intact, and using the physical body, keep the mind under control and totally purified.  These two things easy to understand, but the third one upholding moral values; often even a great person can commit a mistake also.  Never know - if we try to do one thing, we might end up doing another thing.  That's what Krishna taught very well.  Always think of a larger cause, not the selfish thing.  That is not the dharma.  “Oh, I have taken a vow that I will listen only to the king.”  That is wrong.  The king is a wicked one.  He is simply watching if a lady is going to be disrobed, and you are also, in spite of being a noble man, you keep quiet, thinking that you cannot do anything without the orders of the king.  That is adharma.  You also think.  All the people who are sitting there in this Zoom class, you think yourself what it is.  Was it the right thing to do like that one?  So that is what the dharma is.  That's how the thinking, if the mind really becomes purified.  Otherwise, even after forty years you want to usurp a piece of land from the Ashram.  So what is the use of doing forty years of meditation?  Your ego is still there, it is all sitting on the moustache that you would have grown.

End of Questions and Answers

End of Session