The Secrets of the Mind | Thus Spake Babaji #86

Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #86 recorded on 2 January 2022 with US participants.

If you are interested in joining the live online meditation classes with Babaji please visit https://www.shivarudrabalayogi.org/en/online-satsang 

0:06 Do all the benefits of meditation including Self- Realization come from silencing the mind?
1:54 What is the attention of the mind?
6:33 As we progress in meditation does consciousness start to watch itself?
8:06 Is consciousness of existence a permanent thing?
8:57 is consciousness the basic material of meditation?
11:38 Is consciousness the dreamer and the knower of the dream?
12:41 Is consciousness the seed of all creation?
13:57 What are we, prior to consciousness?
14:25 is it possible to empty the mind of thoughts?
15:58 How can we keep the mind quiet both in meditation and out of meditation?
18:07 What is the role of desire in the creation of consciousness?
23:53 How to manage pain and not let it affect you
26:37 Does creation come about because the nature of energy is to be active?
28:17 If we can disconnect from the ownership of desires, can we desire with more consciousness?
31:36 Overcoming desires and passions with jangama dhyana
34:58 Can you do meditation with your eyes open, doing regular activities of the day?
36:49 How does the ego dissolve?
37:42 How to not recognise and analyse in meditation?

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Transcript

The Secrets of the Mind, Thus Spake Babaji, online Q&A #86

02 January, 2022, US Participants

Questioner:

It appears that Self-Realization, and all the benefits that come from meditation come from silencing the mind... is that correct? 

Babaji: 

Yes, yes. First step, and that is the beginning and the end. The moment it effortlessly becomes totally silent, so its attention turns to itself. 

It has to be attentive all the time. You keep it engaged in the world, so it becomes miserable. Because it tries to be attentive on impermanent things, becomes attached, then analyzes, decides this is good, decides this is bad, it decides this is happiness, it decides this is unhappiness. Like that it gets involved, on and on and on, never ending process. 

But when it becomes silent its attention turns to itself, because that Entity is Eternal, Permanent. And also that Entity is totally at peace, contented. When there is Total Peace there is automatically contentment there. Vice versa, if there is contentment automatically there is peace. So then it doesn't need anything, that's why it has peace. 

So that is the thing, silencing the mind. 

Same Questioner:

So Baba, we do that with this meditation, Jangama Dhyana, by focusing our attention between the eyebrows, and You've said that if thoughts come just keep watching, which means not thinking, and eventually the thoughts recede. 

So, attention, what is attention? It seems like it's our awareness, and if we let that awareness go to the thoughts, then it's like we energize those thoughts. Each of those thoughts seems to have its own charge, it could be an emotion, a memory, whatever, but if we keep watching eventually the thoughts go away. But if we let our attention go to the thoughts, it's like it recharges them, and they just keep spinning. What's the attention and how does it put life into the mind? 

Babaji: 

In my opinion, simply paying an attention itself doesn't create any such problems. So when you pay attention, the next step, it recognizes - so it must not recognize the existence of a thought, of a vision, of any object, of any subject, nothing - so thus, it is able to watch. 

Attention is a common word. You have to pay attention to just watch, like that. Be mindful, type. That's what I mean at least when I use the word attention. So attention doesn't mean that you have to start talking with yourself, or try to analyze, or make any judgments. Whatever you want to make, you be attentive to that. Here, you have to watch, so you be attentive that you just watch. Take care that you just watch. 

Same Questioner:

Okay, so what You're saying then is, the attention... well first, I think, Baba, of the attention as being my awareness. Wherever I put my attention, which is my awareness, then I become conscious I'm talking to you, or what's in my mind. 

Babaji: 

No, you becoming aware is different, becoming conscious is different. When you become aware you simply become aware of that existence, but you don't bother anything about that existence. But if you become conscious of that existence, then you are getting involved into that. 

Same Questioner:

Right. Yeah, because when the awareness is there, there's not really an 'I' involved, it's just kind of just aware of its own existence…

Babaji: 

Yes, Yeah.

Same Questioner:

...But then if you're conscious, it's 'I am conscious'. it's knowingness, it's like knowingness; 'I know some things'... 

Babaji: 

Yeah.

Same Questioner:

...'I know some things'; there has to be a knower, and it has to know some thing, an object. So, originally though that awareness is pure, and then it falls on something and it becomes conscious, and then it starts to analyze, and make judgments. 

But I think what You're saying is it's not the thought that's the problem, the problem is that when the awareness goes to the thought and becomes conscious of it, it starts to get involved in it instead, it can't just keep watching. 

Babaji: 

Yeah. So becoming conscious means, you become conscious that there is a thought and that it is a good or is a bad - like that it jumps into further, further, thought after thought starts coming - but if your simply aware, you are aware of that existence but you don't try to analyze what it is. 

Same Questioner:

Right. So we could say then the attention in its purest form is just awareness?

Babaji: 

Awareness. Then the thought disappears, because you are not going to hold on to that. 

Same Questioner:

Okay, You've said that, you know, as we progress in meditation you realize that it's consciousness watching consciousness, or consciousness watching itself. 

Babaji: 

Yeah. Here...

Same Questioner:

Is that correct?

Babaji: 

Yes. Consciousness here is not thinking, or analyzing, or not recognizing, it is simply watching itself. 

Same Questioner:

Because normally we're conscious of the world, and all the thoughts, and everything that's going on in our mind, but we're not conscious of the consciousness itself. 

Babaji: 

Yes, true.

Same Questioner:

And so as the mind becomes more quiet and the thoughts recede, then we become aware, or conscious, that we are the consciousness. And that's like one of the first steps really. 

Babaji: 

And after that no further thoughts come. “This is it” - you become quiet. Just aware. Of the consciousness just awareness happens, and then that also stops. 

Same Questioner:

So that awareness is prior to consciousness, Baba? 

Babaji: 

Yes. 

Same Questioner:

Because it seems that consciousness came with the birth of the body. I have no knowledge of what was prior to being conscious that I existed. So this 'consciousness of existence', is that a permanent thing? Or is that... 

Babaji: 

No. This 'consciousness of existence' is there because you are stuck with the brain's reflections. So thus, you have become temporarily a dweller, as if you are the dweller in this body. This body is the area in which you appear to be a dweller. 

Same Questioner:

So, consciousness, is it the basic material of creation? I mean, ultimately the very first element of...

Babaji: 

Yeah, raw material, what you call it, in other words. 

So in one of the Upanishads, like Katha Upanishad it says, in this sentence it says, symbolically words have been used; 'When the Divine wanted to create, nothing else existed except the Divine. So the Divine took out from Itself, Itself as the raw material, and created the world. Thus, this world is to be considered a form of that Divinity.' Like that it says. But here, all the terminologies are simply imagination, to give a nearest clue. The Divinity is not as a personality, it is as the Supreme Consciousness, All-Pervaded.

Just like your mind is the best clue. Your mind is in a formless state; it is neither a form nor formless, beyond that. But when the mind imagines, it creates within itself. So that means mind itself must be the raw material for any such creation of a thought or a vision that is in the mind. 

Same Questioner:

So that's the mind then being that creative imagination power of consciousness.

Babaji: 

Yeah. So that is the clue. Taking this as a clue, the teachings say the Divine is All-Pervaded in this Universe. Because every appearance is within that Divinity, within that Supreme Consciousness, including our own body. 

So here, imagine the amazing thing, you are in a dream, but suddenly one person starts thinking, 'There is something wrong, what is this appearance?' And then eventually realizes that ‘I am not this dream, I am the one who is dreaming temporarily. So I have to stop this dreaming, then I will have peace.' 

Same Questioner:

So Baba, consciousness is both the dreamer and the knower of the dream?

Babaji: 

Yeah.

Same Questioner:

...Simultaneously. 

And since consciousness is the prime material of all manifestation, all thought, You were saying, I guess it becomes thought, and thought becomes matter. Then is that why as we quiet the mind and become silent, we start to feel like we're everywhere, in everything - because we are. [Questioner chuckles]. 

Babaji: 

Yeah. Yes. In astronomical words, the same thing what you said if we have to say - suddenly we realize we are not this body, we are this space. And we start seeing space as ourselves, everywhere, in everything, as everything, finally. The dweller.

Same Questioner:

So is consciousness the seed of all creation? Could You say that? 

Babaji: 

Yes. 

Same Questioner:

And what's the seed of consciousness? 

Babaji: 

When it imagines, creates, it becomes creative. 

Same Questioner:

But consciousness is risen from the Absolute, is that correct? 

Babaji: 

Yes, Absolute. 

Simply you have to use some terminology to go further, further - whereas it is the same. That's it. Either you can stop there, or you want to use another terminology. There's one more father there, like that [Babaji laughs]. 

Same Questioner:

Like the mirror in front of the mirror. It goes forever.

Babaji: 

Forever. The appearance of this mirror is the reason for the other mirror, that mirror’s appearance is the reason for this mirror... like that it goes on, and on, and on, never ending. 

So you just remove one of the mirrors and everything ends. 

Same Questioner:

So, what are we prior to consciousness, Baba? 

Babaji: 

Existence. 

Same Questioner:

Eternal Existence. So that's prior to the mirror. 

Babaji: 

Yeah. When we use the word existence, so that means existence is, in other words, Eternal. 

Same Questioner:

You know Baba, some teachers say that we can't empty our mind of thoughts, yet this is what we're attempting to do with meditation. Could you address that? 

Babaji: 

In my personal experience and opinion, it is possible to quieten the mind, to empty it. By emptying, it doesn't become simply empty - it is going to be Absolute all the time - whether there is something in it or not. 

Like the space is going to be Absolute, whether this Universe is there in it, or not in it. 

Same Questioner:

Perhaps Baba they mean that you can't find a door where you can just use thought to get rid of thoughts, you have to watch and just stop thinking. 

Babaji: 

You see, one has to understand - technology. Because no other object, matter, subject, anything, can remove the thoughts except the consciousness itself. Because consciousness is the thing which has imagined, created all the thoughts. Only it can withdraw - it has to become quiet and the thoughts are withdrawn, they all disappear, dissolve. 

Same Questioner:

How can we abide in that awareness all the time, both in meditation and out of meditation? 

Babaji: 

By practice. By practice, slowly you would be able to delink our body movements, and our mind’s reverberation. The mind can be skillfully quietened, and the body keeps moving - it is quiet, this is moving, it's quiet... Body moving mean, in it all the sensory organs, everything, comes. Slowly you develop the skill, that you talk but you are silent, you smell but you are silent. 

Because in the long time of Tapas you have practiced not to analyze. So thus, you smell something but you don't analyze what it is, whether it is a smell or what it is also you don't name it. Simply it is there. Like you talk, but you don't analyze what you are talking. Such thoughts of ego doesn't occur, 'Oh, great knowledge is coming out of me, what I am talking is so beautiful.' Nothing, no awareness is there what I am talking. As a separation, afterwards sometimes if I try to listen, 'How wonder this is, what is the source, this source must be that Absolute only.' Because the 'I' has disappeared, dissolved there, it never thinks 'I have done this.' It cannot. The source is the Absolute. 

Same Questioner:

So Baba, as You're talking to us then, there's no sense of You really talking to us, it's just that we ask You a question and these answers come out with no sense of You doing anything? 

Babaji: 

Yes. [The questioner laughs then Babaji laughs]

Questioner:

During this discussion this question came up - what is the role of desire in all this? Because when You said consciousness is creating, that creation itself is a desire, isn't it? 

And I was also reading this Ashtavakra Gita and this shloka came up, 'The mind of the man seeking Liberation can find no resting place within. But the mind of the Liberated man is always free from desire, by the very fact of being without a resting place.' 

Babaji: 

Originally a creation happened without any desire, just by a practice. Like, a small clue - when in the early morning you get up, if you have had a sound sleep your mind would be fresh and quiet, you enjoy that quietness - you are in yourself for a while. Suddenly unknown to you, your mind starts imagining. When it starts imagining, it has no desire. Simply because of the presence of energy and the ability of the consciousness this thing happened, just like that. 

Some school of thought tell that nothing really got created, and some tell, ‘Without any desire the thought came’. So, both are equally correct. There was no desire because the consciousness was in itself. When it was in itself, it was totally contented, and because of contentment it was totally peaceful. When it was peaceful, no other desire arises. You don't need anything else. You need anything else only when you don't have peace. If you analyze, if you think, if you try to churn, this is the fact actually. So when you have peace. So thus a desire couldn't have arisen as a desire. Simply it started creating. 

So that is also the concept we tell in Hinduism; enormous amount of consciousness arose and created. But that simply created just for sake of play, without any desire of needing anything, because it was already at peace and contentment. So that is what is explained as the concept of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. These three are always recognized as Divinity, the Trinities, 'Trimurties', the first 'Adimurties', first manifested form of the Divine, 'Parabrahman'. 

So after this, if you look into the Puranas and the stories of Devatas, Indra, Mahendra, all these things, Rakshasas, they all had become a little bit corrupted. Means, because of insecurity. So desires started arising. Perhaps over power, for security. Because they had started forgetting about themselves. Thus the Self started forgetting themselves. And the next generation, next generation, like it went on becoming corrupted, and the next incarnation went on happening.

Whereas for Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, no next incarnation has happened. They remained in the Self. At the end of the Kalpa, they become one with the Divinity - Parabrahman actually - the truth is that is the One. 

So that is how a desire has happened without a desire. 

Same Questioner:

So that's why they tell us not to have desires?

Babaji: 

Yes. If you can get rid of all desires, you will find the peace within. 

Because you are having a desire to find that peace. You want to enjoy. Generally people understand the word enjoy instead of peace. They don't know that the peace is the thing which gives enjoyment. But they want enjoyment and they go on looking for things. They develop desires... to feel satisfied. 

Same Questioner:

So the other example You gave about the mind and the body moving reminded me of that metaphor, where they say, 'When you are sitting in a train and the train next to yours is moving, you feel like you are also moving.' 

Babaji: 

Yes. 

Same Questioner:

So when I'm stillness I know that nothing is moving, it's just an illusion?

Babaji: 

Yes. Very true. When the mind is quiet, you realize yourself that you are simply still, you are not doing anything and you never did anything at all. 

If the consciousness starts spinning, it appears as if you are moving, and you are doing, you have come into existence as a personality. When this all goes... that's why I told a while ago to Agastya, when I'm answering, no such thought comes that I am answering and you have asked a question and I have that knowledge, there is no such thing, that individuality is not there at all. 

Questioner:

Pranams Babaji. I have a very quick question about this consciousness and  body. I was thinking about it this morning. In Kannada when you are not well, you say ‘the body is not well’. We don't really say ‘I'm not well’.

So I'm thinking Babaji... now, for us You are Divine. So You - when You undergo pain, or when the body undergoes pain, or pleasure, or whatever it is - how do You manage to disassociate too? I know in Perth You were quite unwell, but yet You did all the programs without it affecting You. How do you manage that Babaji? I tried and I failed miserably. 

Babaji: 

Naturally and effortlessly the ego has disappeared, because the Truth has been known that ‘I’ do not exist at all. Whatever exists is that Absolute. So whatever I was thinking about, that I exist, and I am this, and I am that - they were all simply illusions, simply my own imagination. 

Through Tapas and the practice of Samadhi, when this Awareness comes once for all, it remains there in that Awareness. So it never gets involved, ever again. 

The pain can be there, but...

Same Questioner:

So Babaji, do You not feel?

Babaji: 

Pain will be there if the body experiences. Because, I have told, a little bit of consciousness is in touch with the brain. That experiences that pain, but it doesn't get troubled. 

These two things instantly happen. In the world when you experience a pain of any sort, you feel troubled. If you are not troubled you wouldn't have bothered about the pain also. For anybody, this is the logic. Two are together actually; whoever gets the pain, they get troubled. Only when you become aware of your Real Self, you are not troubled anymore - you know. 

Just like somebody criticizes this body thinking this to be me. I might become aware that they are criticizing, but I am not troubled. My consciousness is quiet, at peace, because the Truth is known. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You so much Babaji, thank You. 

Questioner:

You talk a lot about Supreme Consciousness of Existence, but not so much lately about Supreme Energy. And You've also said as I recall in the past, that Supreme Consciousness and Supreme Energy are really one and the same, they're not two separate. 

So my question is - is the explanation for the appearance of a creation because Supreme Energy by its nature wants to be active? And so the appearance of the world is there without any desires being the cause because the nature of energy is to be active? Otherwise, what good is energy if it isn't active? Energy is about movement, it's about... 

Babaji: 

Yeah. It's true. Same thing, if I talk about consciousness or if I talk about energy, it is the same, they both are same only. If one is active, the other also becomes active. Consciousness becomes active only because of the presence of the energy. Just like I tell, your mind thinks and spins. Because of the presence of energy it is possible for the mind to think, otherwise it would have become inert. 

So that is why it is always explained they both are inseparable. Shiva and Shakti, they are one and same. 

Questioner:

My question is, if we could disconnect from this ownership of the desires, will we get closer to being able to desire without being the desire, and desire with more consciousness? 

Babaji: 

You see, let me try to explain, see if you can understand. 

Sometimes in my teachings I have told, tried to explain, having a desire itself is not a problem. If the desire gets fulfilled, or if it doesn't gets fulfilled - so then you put your happiness to depend on that desire getting fulfilled or not getting fulfilled - then you are likely to go into troublesome periods. That is what is alerted in spiritual teaching. 

You have a desire, of the body, or of the house, of this world, anything, but be ready to understand, be aware, that all these are impermanent - any time anybody can snatch. If that happens, you must be ready. If you are not ready, you will be troubled. 

Like this body. One day... this is like a rental house, the owner will take it away one day. So we have to be simply ready with that awareness. So then that desire is not a problem. That means that desire will not involve your consciousness getting into any problem. So that way only a teaching is given to beware of desires. 

If you can get rid of desires - means if you can experience the total contentment in yourself, your existence - then at all times you are contented and you are at peace. The rest you can be a normal person in this world. You can own a house, and you can have a body, you can have any property, you can have anything in the world. But you will always be at peace, whether you have it or you don't have it. That's what you would be able to achieve by practicing meditation. 

Same Questioner:

Okay, so is that how a Jivanmukti approaches life? 

Babaji: 

Exactly. That is what is known as Jivanmukti. Whether you have you are happy, whether you don't have you are happy. Because your happiness will not depend on any of the world's objects, including your own physical body. But you can have everything, it is not prohibited. 

Same Questioner:

So this is the way that we live fully in the world. 

Babaji: 

Yeah, if everybody can become aware, everybody can be happy at all times. 

Same Questioner:

Yes, okay.

Babaji: 

Bless you.

Questioner:

Some spiritual books mention that a person can practice meditation for years, even achieve some type of Samadhi, but if there are desires and passions not overcome they can still fall back into creation, sometimes even fall deeper into creation. 

However, you mentioned in Jangama Dhyana if we just watch our thoughts - basically the thoughts are our desires - if we just watch our thoughts without getting involved in the thoughts, we can eventually overcome our desire and passions. Can you please elaborate on that? 

Babaji: 

Yeah. You see, like I told for the previous question, having a desire itself is not a problem, but if the desire grows into an anxiousness further, whether it will happen or not, 'If it is unfulfilled I am unhappy'; so all this is what is troublesome. So when you are just watching the thoughts, you are not developing any desires towards the thought. If it is there okay, if it is not there also okay. With that attitude you proceed. If you have a house is good, and if you have a body that is good, if at any time if the body comes to an end, it's okay, good. 

Because you will not depend for your happiness for any of the happenings in the world. If it happens it's good, you want to have it you have it, nobody will prohibit. Spirituality does not prohibit. But simply you don't depend for your happiness on that impermanent item because that cannot be guaranteed. That's what the teaching is. 

But when you go on watching, you are actually practicing not to get involved with the thoughts. You won't identify yourself or your happiness with the thoughts. You simply start becoming quiet, and remaining at peace, thus eventually those thoughts and visions disappear in the mind. So you can still have some ambition. You want to achieve something in this world, you want to help somebody, but your happiness will not depend on that. 

Like for example, we are also working. We want to create awareness of the truth, what we experienced. We want to initiate people into meditation. We want people to learn meditation. But my happiness will not depend on the results of what I am going to do. Whether I will achieve that I can train fifty Self Realized people, my happiness is not dependent on that. I will simply go on teaching what I know. I will create an awareness. Then whoever developed faith, whoever is destined, they will listen to me, and they will not only listen, they'll be able to understand my teachings - then practice, understand the need, and they will achieve. So like that. 

So you do whatever you want to do, but remain at peace. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You Babaji. 

Questioner:

Yeah, my question is, this meditation that we are doing, with our eyes closed and watching the mind, is it possible to do when your eyes are open doing the regular activities of the day? Let's say if you're washing dishes, if you are doing laundry, or doing some chores, or just sitting idle, just not doing anything, or just watching something... can you still watch your thoughts with your eyes open, or is it difficult? 

Babaji: 

If you can keep quiet mentally then you will be able to watch while keeping the eyes open. Otherwise, initially, until you become an expert, it is recommended to keep the eyes closed - and then try when you have opened the eyes also. 

Because when you have opened the eyes, an additional illusion is there, this world's manifestation. When you close the eyes also there is an illusion there. So you will have to face the double illusions. So you have to practice more strongly. You go on washing the clothes - but just wash the clothes and don't bother for anything else, whether the clothes will get washed or not washed - you don't bother, you just wash the clothes. Just like the old film dialogue, 'When you want to shoot, just shoot! Don't keep talking ‘you want to shoot.’' 

Like that if you can adopt in every action of yours, mentally you can become quiet eventually. That can serve like a sadhana for you, that is the karma yoga. 

Same Questioner:

So, kind of being in the present moment...

Babaji: 

Present moment.

Same Questioner:

...instead of thinking about the past of the future. 

Babaji: 

Yes, in the present moment. Never be anxious. You plan for your future, but don't have to be anxious. 

Same Questioner:

Right. The other thing I was thinking about is whether Self Realization is a moment where the ego actually gets diluted, because it's an imaginary thing, the ego, it's never a real thing, it's just some memories, or some thought process, right? But how does it just dissolve, or how does it die? Is it some Divine thing, like the Self, Reality appears and then it just gets dissolved like that, or how does it happen actually? 

Babaji: 

It is already there. It is already there. Mind is simply into imaginations, that's why it has forgotten about itself. It has to become quiet, mentally. The moment it becomes quiet, everything is dissolved automatically. It has peace, and awareness also comes. 

Questioner:

There was one question in the chat that they wanted me to read. It says, "Baba, during meditation today You said ‘Don't recognize, or don't even talk in your mind’, but when a when a thought or vision came I remembered what You said, and I kept telling myself ‘Don't recognize it.’ 

How to not recognize and analyze is the question. Is it okay to say, ‘Don't recognize’ in these beginning stages? 

Being quiet and just watching does not seem to happen. Will it come eventually?" 

Babaji: 

You see, always an action has to happen into what you are supposed to do. Just like you stand on the banks of a river, 'I have to jump, I have to jump, let me jump, how do I jump?' You just jump! Stop these three things, 'I have to jump, and how do I jump, and when do I jump?' Stop these three things and just jump. 

So like that here, the technology is, you don't have to keep asking yourself, 'I should not recognize, I should not analyze'. Don't think like that - just watch. If you are watching then you are not analyzing, then you are not thinking. 

So use the eyeballs to steadily watch the front portion. When you are watching, when the thoughts come, don't think anything about that thought. Just like you are watching me talking now, do not allow your mind to think, ‘Oh, Babaji is very old, he has white hair. Oh, Babaji's head is bald.’ Why do you have to think? Just listen to me what I am telling, isn't it possible? 

Like this when you meditate also, it is possible that you just watch the thoughts. You don't think about the thought, whether it has a white hair or a bald head, or whatever it is, or a red pullover, don't bother, just watch. 

It is possible, you can do that one. Try. 

40:11