Meditation and Supreme Peace | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.116

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Meditation and Supreme Peace | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.116
Recorded on 21 August 2022 with US participants.

0:00 Intro
0:06 What is meditation and the value of it?
4:11 Can you find peace in the mind?
5:51 What is sat chit ananda?
8:34 How can you think in the world and remain in supreme peace?
11:40 Where does the 'I am'-ness come from?
19:22 How is love that is experienced in silence distinguished from the imagination?
21:37 When Self-realized does the mind not catch the reflections of the brain or does the brain stop reflecting?
25:47 The different states of samadhi
31:20 High energy experienced after chanting which drops quickly to a low level
35:25 Samadhi and ego
40:17 How to get beyond fears
43:25 After meditation practice, why does the world seems more real rather then less real?
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Website: http://www.srby.org
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shivarudrabalayogi
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SRBYmission
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Transcript

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji - online Q and A No. 116
 Meditation and Supreme Peace
You tube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAzNUy-dqY
Recorded: 22 February 2023

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:   Baba, if we wanted to explain meditation, what meditation is, particularly the jangama dhyana that we do, how would You explain that to somebody what it is, and also what is the value of meditating? 

Babaji Maharaj:   This meditation, you are trying to pay attention to yourself.  This is the first sentence.  Now, how it can happen?  The mind is made up of consciousness and energy.  It is the combination of consciousness and energy.  Consciousness means here, wherever you apply your consciousness, or in other words your mind, both are same.  When thoughts and visions are there, the same substance comes to be known as mind.  If everything is clear, only pure consciousness; that is what is the pure consciousness - that is there.  Then the attention goes to itself.  You can experience yourself as an existence but nothing else.  You cannot see in naked eyes.  You cannot understand what it is.  It is beyond any comprehension.  All such things are there.  Well now, the meditation is recommended so that you can regain the control of yourself or your mind - mind control.  

Just now, mind has gone out of control and has become preoccupied with its own imaginations.  That needs to be taken care of.  That is the reason a meditation is recommended.  When you meditate, pay attention, focus your mind and sight, just keep watching there.  If you are watching there, you will not be able to think eventually, and all thoughts and visions will fall out or dissolve, what you call it.  Then what remains is the pure consciousness.  Means, you will have that existence feeling but don't know what it is.  Like that, that you will experience.  But eventually, it will be revealed how you exist as the eternal entity.  But the meditation's first beginning is for mind control so that you become master of yourself, your own mind; both are same.  Whenever you need to stop, you should be able to stop, when you need to restrain yourself, you can restrain yourself.  You don't have to talk unnecessarily at that time.  So, then you can keep quiet also possible.  Otherwise, the mind has become a chatterbox and it will induce one person also to go into a talking, talking, talking, talking, blah blah blah blah all the time.  Like a chatterbox, that is what happens.  So, the meditation's idea is to stop that chattering, the chatterbox nature of the mind and slowly can take control of the thing.  Taking control means, when you want to think, you should be able to think, when you don't want to think, you should be able to keep quiet.  So, that is the idea of meditation.  These are the basic points to understand.  Silent meditation, you are trying to make the mind silent so that it turns introvert to itself.  Just now it is extrovert and preoccupied with its own imagination.  To end this phenomenon or process is the practice of meditation.  

Question:   Baba, there seem to be two things there.  One is gaining control of the mind which has a lot of practical benefits also, but then the Supreme Peace, finally finding peace because you don't find it in the mind.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, the mind cannot give supreme peace because it is into cravings with analyzing the thoughts and making judgments and absorbing imprints, building up attitudes about me and mine.  So, all these things form as ego.  So, this ego is the troublemaker always.  It keeps troubling.  Whereas this imagination is helpful and necessary to live in this world.  But it should not go out of control.  That is what is important.  It should be under your control.  When you don't have to think or don't want to think, you should be able to keep quiet.  So, that is the practice of meditation.  Taking control of the mind means that is what it is.  Whenever you want to think, you must be able to think also.  That is possible.  Consciousness is creativity.  It is the combination of imagination and energy.  It is the consciousness and energy through which you can imagine, you can become creative, is possible.  But when you don't want, you can keep quiet.  So, that is the benefit of the meditation.

Question:   So, Baba, what is satchitananda, and how is it related to the Self? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Sat is the existence truth and the mind or the existence truth in its consciousness is always in ananda, in happiness, in Supreme Peace.  That is what is satchitananda, satchitananda.  So that is what it is called, satchitananda, means always in Supreme Peace.  That truth of your existence, that ‘you’ can always be in peace, always at all times is possible when you practice deeper meditations.  

Question:   And so ananda is bliss and sat is existence or eternal existence, and chit is mind?

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, yes.  It is inside.  As long as the same consciousness is converting itself as a mind, then there is no peace because it is losing what you call attention on itself, and it becomes preoccupied attending to the thoughts and visions that it would have created or imagined.  So, then it loses peace. Then whatever comes, if you try to depend for your happiness on that, that is going to disappear, means that is impermanent.  Like this universe, whatever, whether it will immediately disappear or not disappear is not the point, but the point to be understood is it is impermanent.  One day it is going to disappear, it is going to change its shape at least, including your own physical body.  So, that is when you cannot have peace as long as the mind is active.  Only when it becomes totally quiet, then there is peace.  So, if you can keep yourself quiet at all times, then you can be quiet and you can have the Supreme Peace.  So, now as long as the body is there, when you need to live in this world, you can imagine a little bit and then you can live in this world, but you don't have to lose control over the mind.  So, that is important.  

Question:   So how can you be active in thinking in the world and remain in Supreme Peace? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, like this, you keep only a little bit of consciousness in touch with the brain and when you need to think, just think that much.  Don't allow the mind to further go into further imaginations of anxiousness or brooding.  Once you have thought that is over, then you are quiet.  So like this if you practice meditation, then eventually what you can achieve is, you will not absorb any imprints.  Always you will be silent.  Even though you are talking, most of the jobs you will be able to do it mechanically through the body - talking, walking, everything, all jobs, anything that is needed.  Even if a little bit of thinking is needed, you will just do it as a thing to plan, to induce yourself.  So that is all and then you will become quiet again.  You won't go out of control, you won't go on and on and on and on and on thinking, thinking, thinking which gets converted into worries very often.  So, that shall not happen, that will not happen in fact when you practice meditation.  Just like now, even when I am talking or gossiping, gossiping any topic, not necessarily be spirituality, still then my inside, I am quiet and totally in silence.  So that is why I have, I am at peace, I have that peace; total peace is there - Supreme Peace.  Supreme Peace, why we call it, there is no other peace like that to compare even.  That is the final, amazing, awesome.  

Question:   So, the awareness of yourself as the consciousness of existence is there all the time, but thoughts, you can use them when you need them when you use the mind, but you have realized… That’s what Self-realization is, isn't it? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, you have realized yourself what you are actually, which is the permanent entity.  At all times, existence will be there.  Like this universe, I have told has only appearance value, but you have the existence value.  This is what you realize and you become aware of it.  Consciously, if you are always aware, so you will have peace; the mind will be peaceful, is at peace and you are in your awareness.  You abide in yourself.  

Question:   Okay, thank You Baba.  So, this term, "ankura."  Are You familiar with that, ankura, the sprouting of ‘I am-ness.’  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes.  

Question:   What is that?  Because apparently there is the ‘I am-ness,’ but something is even watching a witness to the I am-ness too.  

Babaji Maharaj:   See, on one side, when you meditate, you will be able to notice or become aware eventually that that ‘I’ where there is no imagination, but simply you feel that you exist without any imagination.  You don't even call it as ‘I’ or ‘me’ or ‘mine’, nothing.  Just you exist; you are aware of that.  That is totally peaceful because there is no craving, there is no desire.  It is totally contented, at peace.  But what has happened?  From the same consciousness of existence, a thought has arisen as ‘I.’  When that thought has arisen, almost instantly it forgot that it is and was and is and always that only, but instead it imagined about itself as a personality, as an ego which does not exist.  That is what I always try to call individual imagined self, which does not exist.  It is always in a particular form, like the form of a body or form of an Indian, form of an American, form of a Christian, form of a Hindu, those type of things, all such forms. Of a businessman;  When you start thinking, “I am a businessman,” means that ego crops up.  ‘Oh..’, that ‘I’ gets into a shape that that ‘I’ is a businessman.  So that gets converted, you see?  So the reality is lost temporarily.  The awareness about the truth of existence is lost, so then it gets involved.  

Then when that imagined self, if it is threatened, so then it becomes agitated, it loses its peace.  “O God, somebody is going to stop me from doing my business.  It does not want me to do any business.  I am a businessman.  I have to do business.  Otherwise, how can I earn?”  So, you become insecure.  Otherwise, this real ‘I’ nobody can disturb.  Nobody can talk anything about that.  Nobody knows.  So, that is what Ashtavakra told when He entered King Janaka's court. Because he had eight deformities in the body, He could not walk straight, so He used to roll down.  So then watching that, people, the courtiers, they all laugh at him.  So then Ashtavakra tells, “O king, I thought in your court, people are wise here.  But what I can see is only all foolish people.  They are laughing, but in their thoughts they are thinking they are laughing at me, whereas they don't know about me at all, anything.  Watching this body, they are thinking this body to be me, whereas this body is not me.”  Like that He tells.  So, that is what happens.  

Question:   So, Baba, even on a gross level, you could say, “I am the body,” but how about on a subtle level, even you could say, “I am the light, I am the bliss.”   That’s still ignorance, isn't it? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, you see, that is how the illusion has arisen and given rise to the ‘me and mine’ things, about ‘me’ also, that's what has happened.  Whereas the consciousness is pure and totally infinite, it looks as if it is there and it is not there, that type, that is what the real Self is, but from the same Self, like now we take the mind. When it is pure consciousness, it is infinite.  Nobody has seen the mind in naked eyes, but from there only, the thought arises and a shape appears about it.  “Oh, I am a businessman.”  That is when that consciousness becomes mind and starts thinking, “I am a businessman,” then that crops up, that sprouts as an ego, ankurith, that's what you are talking.   So, then that I-ness sprouts. With the ‘I’, a shape also sprouts, that's what in Sanskrit, ahankar.  Ahankar original basic meaning is, aham is me, akar is the shape, shape of me, whereas there is no shape for me at all.  Here, it imagines a shape, it imagines a name, it imagines Shiva Rudra Balayogi, it imagines a white beard, it imagines a matted hair, whereas nothing exists really.  

Question:   So, anytime there is any kind of shape or definition to ‘I’, then that's not true, that's the ego, ahankar.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Because that has arisen out of imagination.    Sage Vashista talks in His Yoga Vasishta, the technology used to create this world is imagination.  See, for some people, simply imagining may appear as a very ordinary quality, but we have repeatedly tried to tell - our consciousness, the mind has quality to imagine, which is not an ordinary thing; it is the creativity when it rises to the highest pitch.  So, that's how creation has happened.  So, as if there is a creation, appears to be; you imagine, a thought appears, then that thought takes a shape and the character appears.  With the character, a story also appears, then you go on and you get involved into that story, into that character.  In every character, it is you as the consciousness who is operating in a different form; that is only due to imagination, which does not exist.  

Question:   Earlier, after the first meditation, there was a little discussion and, basically there's the world of the mind and initially that I am-ness, or the knower is mixed up in that and doesn't know itself.  And so people like Baba come along, the Gurus, and they go, “This is the real truth,” and they try to separate the knower from all the imaginations, from what's in the mind.  And then Self-realization is when you realize that you are the pure consciousness and everything else is just coming and going,  temporary thing.  Beautiful, Baba.  Okay, let's take some questions.  

Question:   Baba, Namaste.  So, the question following what You've just presented was, is love an illusion?  If, for instance, my experience, not mine, but in silence, peace and joy come, which I would describe as love.  Now, how is that distinguished from my imagination?   

Babaji Maharaj:   You would have had a glimpse of silence and in that silence, this imagination, if the thoughts are coming as peace or happiness or whatever it is, then that is the imagination that is arising.  When the imagination arises, that takes a shape, start thinking, “What is this imagination, what is this happiness, what is this blissfulness?”  So, then that takes a shape also.  It's like this, because it has to have a relative existence.  So, that's when you start thinking, “Oh, is it like owning a whole universe, that you become the owner, you become the master, or how?”  So, that's what happens.  If it is just simply remaining quiet, is the peace.  You remain quiet and don't imagine anything about the peace also, then you have the peace.  

Same Questioner:   I understand.  But action versus literally sitting still there in silence for existence in this physical body, that seems to be my struggle where I keep coming back around to, which interrupts the peace.  

Babaji Maharaj:   So for that purpose only you have to practice more and more of keeping quiet mentally, that's the meditation.  Until you don't achieve - even when you come out also, no imagination must crop up, that is necessary.  

Question:   My question is about the brain and the mind.  So, as I understand it, the brain is reflecting information to the mind.  And if one is Self-realized, is it that the mind just doesn't catch on to that reflection or is the brain not reflecting anymore? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Due to the little bit of consciousness in touch with the brain and intake of the food to sustain the body that which becomes blood and along with the blood it carries oxygen also to the brain, the brain is active somewhat, a little bit, to show this world as a vague dream.  So, that's what keeps reflecting.  But whatever it reflects, the mind is no more the mind.  It is totally aware about the truth.  Just like, now you are projecting a movie and watching the movie, but you are sitting behind the projector; you are totally aware that you are simply projecting and the movie is not a reality, you are always aware.  So, you remain unaffected by the movie that is going on, whether it is good or bad, right or wrong, violent, non-violent, anything.  Mentally, you will not get involved and you will not become affected.  Like that only a realized soul also is totally aware of the truth that whatever the brain reflects is only like a flash of movie, that’s all, nothing is real because the brain doesn't know what the truth is.  So whatever the message comes, it simply reflects.  

Same Questioner:   And before Self-realization when the brain is reflecting memories and information and visualizations, the mind, it hooks into the patterns and habits of the mind that are there.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, for an ordinary person who is not realized, then the mind picks up and registers in itself as a fundamental reality.  So, that's when it gets involved and it gets further into that creation and it gets totally involved mentally and it suffers.  That's what happens. And then the brain's activation also increases when the mind gets totally applied onto the brain with that load.  So, then the brain goes berserk and like a madman, it goes on and on and on and it increases its illusory powers.  

Same Questioner:   

It does go on and on and on. And different people's patterns and habits, different individuals, mind, patterns and habits are different, so they'll do different things with the information that the brain reflects depending on the mind?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, yes, it can be totally different from people, person to person.  Even though it is the same thing, like this, anything, one person might think about this as a thermos, another person might think about water inside that one, another person might think, "What is it Babaji is holding?”  another person might think “Does it belongs to Babaji or should I have it?" So, like that person to person, the thoughts can differ, differ, differ, differ.  Millions and millions like that.  

Same Questioner:   One last part, how many habits and patterns does each mind have would You say?

Babaji Maharaj:   Millions and millions.  Only sky is the limit for imagination always.  So, that's when it gets involved, that is how it has come a long way, life after life, life after life, it keeps going on and on and on.  So, there is no limit for that, for imagination; it gets involved.  The more it imagines, it gets further involved, further involved, further involved.  

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Babaji.  

Question:   Pranaams Baba.  So, I have a question about samadhi, and if there are different states of samadhi, because I feel like I haven't gotten completely to no thoughts at all.  And I get to a point where all outside influence is silent, and I mean I could have someone come up and have to shake me to wake me up sometimes even.  But even when I'm in that deepest part of my meditation, there's still thoughts in my mind saying, "Keep watching" or, "This feels nice" or, “That was a warm sensation over my body”.  How would I even know if I did achieve total samadhi? How would I know that?  

Babaji Maharaj:   When you are into total samadhi, no thoughts come at all, not even a single, not even about the ‘I’ or ‘I’ existing. Simply you exist, but you don't have the thought that you exist, everything disappears.  Total stillness happens.  That is what is samadhi.  For long time, when you are able to keep it like that, then when you come out of that meditation also, naturally it will remain in that samadhi.  It doesn't spin or waver or any such thing, nothing sprouts out of that consciousness.  Simply a consciousness of existence in the awareness you abide by within yourself.  So that's what happens.  That will come one day.  So, you are doing better -  you continue with this meditation.  Slowly, slowly give up. Just watch, just watch also.  Instead of thinking “Just watch, just watch”, just watch.  

Same Questioner:   Okay, yes.  Thank You.  So once the samadhi is achieved, it doesn't go away.  You can return to the world and act through yourself.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, as long as the body is alive, you can happily move in the world.  You can have any way of life, but you will remain unaffected inside mentally.  

Same Questioner:   And you'll know it yourself, right? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, definitely you will know.

Same Questioner:   

Thank You Baba.  

Question:   Baba, can I follow up on that just quickly?  Generally, the two most common types of samadhi that we hear about are savikalpa and nirvikalpa.  Is savikalpa a temporary state of samadhi and nirvikalpa a permanent state? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, in my opinion, what I have experienced or understood from Swamiji, savikalpa samadhi is, mind might become single pointed, might give up millions of thoughts, but sticks to one thought, always.  Like if you are repeating a mantra, repeating the name of God, any such thing, then it can get stuck there.  So, then it becomes quiet in all other fronts, all other millions of thoughts all disappear, but still that vikalpa is there.  An iota of that disturbing factor is there, that imagination is there.  So, that is what is known as the savikalpa.  Vikalpa means there is a little bit of an iota of disturbance for actual samadhi still there.  That is what is savikalpa.  Nirvikalpa means there is no more vikalpa at all.  No, not an iota of disturbance, disturbing factor of imagination, not even the ‘I.’  The final thought will be the ‘I’ always.  Once the ‘I’ disappears, there is nothing else.  Like there is an old saying in Hindi, when there is no bamboo and no flute at all, no flute that I had to play, and there is no bamboo at all, you don't have to worry about the flute - like that.  When you do not exist at all- suppose for example, you do not exist at all, you have no problem at all!  No problem can occur to you when you are not there.  If it was the reality that they have been really wonderful, but people might get panicked or scared.  Really when we do not exist, we are not there at all.  No more problem.  As long as I am there, the problem is there.  

Same Questioner:   So, Baba, savikalpa, the ‘I’ will be there.  When ‘I’ vanishes, that would be the last thing to go.

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, ‘I’ focused on the mantra, something like that.  I and my God, something.  

Question:   I loved the question that Nick asked because I had the same question.  So, I know after all the discussion, I realized that I am not there either.  I may feel few seconds of total absence of thoughts, but from the discussion I am gathering that we have to extend that period of no thoughts.  But my question is, when I am meditating, and I come out of it, I do feel a few seconds of blissful joy or happiness, peacefulness, and it seems like a very calming energy.  But then I went in for a Rudram chanting, and we did that yesterday for eleven times, which we have been doing for a world peace.  But when I came out of that three, four hours of chanting, I felt a lot of high energy, and then after everything stopped, it was like I just fell into an energy level, which was very low.  So, how does one cope with this?  In meditation, it is a different kind of energy that is very calming.  In mantra chanting, it is very high.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, you see, that's what I have always told.  Blissfulness can always create an excitement.  You love something, you love somebody, you love the form of God, you love the name of God - that gives excitement, high energy.  When in meditation, totally silently composed, the mind settling down, giving up all imagination, neither I nor I have to see anything, the seer and seen both disappear, is not there at all.  So, that is when you realize, you imagined about yourself where you do not exist and you are undergoing all sufferings and troubles and problems where you never existed.  

Same Questioner:   Yeah, but how does one deal with this high energy, low energy. The quality of energy is different.

Babaji Maharaj:   Next step is to meditate.  Enough of your chanting, enough of your chanting.  Yeah, enough of your chanting now.  Now is the time.  Now it is time to forget about chants and go for meditation only, if that's what you want.  

Same Questioner:   So, there is want?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, yeah, you see, to get rid of other things, you need to want composed energy, composed experience, then you jump to that. Then stop thinking that “I want,” and then do it.  Become quiet, be meditating, practice.  

Same Questioner:   So, chanting is also a sadhana, right?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, it is sadhana.  When you have come to university level, so you cannot reject the nursery, kindergarten, that is also a level of education.  You needed that education also.  So, when you were troubled by millions of thoughts, you needed the chant so that your mind can single pointedly hold on to the chant. “God's name, it is the divine”; like that with that imagination, it holds on and gives up all other thoughts.  So that's why that was also needed, but now if you are feeling this composure and the high energy differences, you want more peace, then you become quiet; give up that also one day.  Just go on meditating, remaining quiet.  Practice, practice, practice, so you will be led towards Self-realization.  

Same Questioner:   So, once that samadhi level is reached, then you are able to cope even with the high energy?  

Babaji Maharaj:   You have gained total control of the kingdom.  You can deal with all uprisings.

Same Questioner:   Okay. Now this samadhi, savikalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi, is there a time period?  Because if You’re saying in nirvikalpa samadhi there is no ‘I’, there is no want, then there is no use for the body.  Is that why Ramakrishna Paramahamsa or all these saints had a little desire so they could be in the body?  And how long does one experience the savikalpa samadhi? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, by a nirvikalpa samadhi, you obtain the expertise that you will never get carried away by anything.  And afterwards when you come out… like I have told, we keep a little bit of ego, of Guru, or anything about the Guru's message.  Like that we keep a little bit of consciousness into the touch of the brain, but this will not affect us.  We know that very well we are directing a movie.  When we are directing, we know that very well that everybody acted there as I directed, as I wanted.  They acted.  And when the shot was done, I said, "Cut”.  That's it, enough, finished.  I don't get involved with the shots anymore.  I know that it's not a reality.  So, when you achieve nirvikalpa samādhi, that's what - you will know the reality, but yet if you have a mission, if the Divine wants you, if you get inspired that you want to share with others what you experienced as nirvikalpa samādhi, such truths, then you can keep in touch with the brain, a little bit consciousness, and yet you will not get carried away with that.  

Same Questioner:   Okay, but when You say keep in touch with the brain, it's not something we are doing voluntarily, right? It's just automatic.  It is very automatic.  I have no control of whether I'm detaching from the brain or not.  I don't even know when I'm detaching from the brain.  

Babaji Maharaj:   You will slowly narrow to a small ego.  Just now for an ordinary person, the ego can be of hundred thousand, millions of thousands of shapes that it takes, but you will simply narrow into one thought about a God, about the truth, about a Guru, something like that.  It will be very small, which will not be troubling you all the time, but it will help you to live in this body.  So, that's what happens, then you can remain unaffected.  These things, as you come to that stage, you will definitely learn.  You will know that.  

Question:   Pranaams Baba.  This is the first story You told a friend of mine that I found very helpful and interesting, and I like You to comment on it.  You were walking in a very peaceful place, and they asked, “Baba, we're walking here under the woods and whom am I talking to?  And Your answer was, “A robot”.  And then they said, "Who is the robot talking to?"  You said, "A ghost."  The reason I find that very amusing is if we associate mind, body, ego, even the world with a ghost, who wouldn't want to leave the ghost behind once and for all?

Babaji Maharaj:   When I would have told “Ghost”, what I meant was the substance that doesn't exist, that’s what a ghost means.  

Same Questioner:   Yes – the irony is, who could not want to leave a ghost behind.  We've never associated anything good with the ghost, so why keep it?  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, that's the practice to become quiet is the meditation.  You become quiet.  You don't keep anything.  

Same Questioner:   You sometimes tell the story of the Guru asking the devotee to go and take the ghost out of the tree.  You told that a month or two ago.  I find that story sort of connected to this little conversation You had in the woods with my friend.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, that was created by the Guru to test the discipline and dedication of the disciple.  So, before that one.  That's how the tests are kept for that one, so that the disciple understands and goes into final meditation actually.  So that's how it happened.  So wonderful.  It's nice.  

Question:   Pranaams Babaji, so my question is not about samadhi, but I'm still stuck in this artificial reality we have created.  So Babaji, in this imagined reality or so-called imagination, we have created rules for this existence of hunger, of security, of fear.  But there is always a certain fear, “I have not got my food”, or “I need something,  I need security”.  How do we make that leap to get beyond that Babaji? 

Babaji Maharaj:   So, all these get created by insecurity.  Like when you have imagined about your existence, then you want to secure that existence always.  Whenever that is threatened, you suffer, or you become threatened, you go into a conflict, or you feel intimidated, something like that.  Like you have imagined about yourself, then you become hungry.  So then that hunger threatens you, then you are scared.  “What if I don't get food, what happens?” So, like that at that time, every time you start thinking courageously, “After all my head is going to be cut, that's all.  If I'm going to be hungry, if I don't get food, if nobody feeds me, and this body will die, that's all.  Let it go.  If at all, if the Divine wants to keep it, He will provide the food.”  So that's what it is.  Like that courageously thinking is necessary to gain inner strength so that you can meditate and eventually lose all these intimidating effects within that you have created because you have imagined about yourself and that is so strong.  So that is why the mind doesn't want to die down, it doesn't want to give up imagination.  In meditation also, sometimes when a silence comes, many people feel scared.  They say, “That's very scary when it is totally silent.  O God, it's an unknown place, nobody is there, what I am doing there, what is happening to me," and so many, because still that ‘I’ iota is there and that imagines all these things and feels threatened and feels scared.  

So once you overcome this effect, then it will be possible.  Hungry will be there as long as the body is there, hunger will happen, but you will not feel threatened.  You will try to obtain a food, that's what the difference will be.  You will try to obtain a food.  If you get it's alright, if at all you don't get food, you won't feel scared, you won't feel threatened.  So there is a difference when a soldier dies or before dying, the soldier feels threatened, these two things are different.  He's ready to die.  

Same Questioner:   Okay, Thank You Babaji.  

Question:   Thank You Baba.  Good to see You as always; such a gift.  I don't know if I'm imagining this or not, but as I become more wakeful in the meditation, I just feel like I'm more awake.  My body, the table, this material world, it seems like it's getting more real, not less real.  You know, this table, I'm more awake.  So, I look at the table, it feels really solid, not less solid.  So, my question to You is, am I actually becoming more wakeful or what's going on? 

Babaji Maharaj:   One important to all of you who are there, in theory by discussing, by listening to some teaching, you cannot make out about the illusion.  It is not easy, because here like Alex is saying about the solidness of the table, he's trying to touch the table which is an illusion by another illusion which is the physical body.  They both are real in their own sense, as long as it is in that sense.  Like in a dream, you might be there, your friend might be there, whereas both you and your friend your own consciousness has created.  But as long as you are there in that dream, when you touch your friend it will appear so real.  So, by theory it is not easy or possible to understand this thing.  You have to practice meditation deeply and then one day in the workshop of your self-experience, you will be able to understand, because when you raise to that level also, if I talk about that, then your mind will pick up and understand.  That's why I try to avoid talking on this topic too much.  When people ask a question, that comes out, the answer, but do not discuss too much on this topic, because it can be confusing for many people when they don't understand, when they are in this world.  So just now, please do not bother about this illusion, reality or unreality, just consider it is impermanent.  Your own body, this world, everything is impermanent.  At least your mind will agree for this.  This is the truth.  And try to meditate.  Don't give up meditation.  Every moment is useful.  Every moment is precious.  Meditate to practice to keep quiet in the mind.  Practice that the mind remains quiet and quiet and quiet. That will give you all experience about the truth of illusion, of the body and of this world, everything, but not by theory.  

End of Questions and Answers

Babaji Maharaj now concludes the session.

  All my love and blessings Agastya.  So wonderful questions came up today about this topic.  I just thought of clarifying about this illusion, not to bother too much in theory, but one must go for a practice.  That is necessary.  Without that practice, this cannot sit as a reality what I am trying to teach.  

End of Session