Science and Spirituality | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.155

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Science and Spirituality | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.155
Recorded on 26th August 2023 with worldwide participants

0:00 Introduction
00:06 The parallels between the scientific and spiritual approach
02:58 Can looking externally to the world eventually lead to the truth?
05:10 Why can we not see or measure the truth?
12:43 Do all  definitions finally need to be given up?
13:48 Consciousness as the fundamental reality
20:44 How society can have faith in spirituality as it has in science.
27:32 Is it important to experience the results of applying the method of meditation?
38:53 Why is the mind so easily influenced by the brain every day?
40:01 Can the use of drugs i.e. from mushrooms etc have the same influence on the mind as meditation?
42:42 Why should Swamiji's story of the Jangama Deva coming out of the fruit be believed?
43:35 If a single mind passes away, does that individual's universe disappear?
46:13 A student being drawn to monkhood
49:39 Is the energy of consciousness the same as energy particles discovered in science?
50:27 How to deal with an inability to practice

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Website: http://www.srby.org
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shivarudrabalayogi
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SRBYmission
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shivarudrabalayogi/

Transcript

Discourse: Thus Spake Babaji - online Q and A No. 155
 Science and Spirituality
You tube Link: https://youtu.be/lipIPYWKzO8
Recorded: 26 August 2023

Start of Questions and Answers

Question:    So, Babaji, I thought I'd start with a dictionary definition that I found of science, and it says “The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the world through observation, experimentation and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.”  Can Babaji perhaps explain if there are parallels between this and the approach of spirituality? 

Babaji Maharaj:   It is almost the same.  Here, in spirituality, we try to observe and through an individual experience, try to know whether it's going to exist even after the birth and death of the body and what are its natures.  Thus finally, though we come to the conclusion that it is boundless, but one common understanding for me as a common person is that both science and spirituality go for an existence value.  What is it that is existing, that we should have a systematic approach and find a result at the end of the tunnel.  That's what I understood.  Thus, for me both spirituality and science are the same, though going in a different way.  Through science we try to observe the world first, and then try to come to what is behind this world.  Whereas so far, they have not yet reached that ultimate root cause, ultimate truth.  Though a little glimpse here and there has come up about ether or so, anything, but always want to name and give it that it is, if we are able to observe that through the instruments or whatever it is. Whereas here in spirituality, the first understanding is the impermanence of the world.  The world is impermanent, no matter each item may have its own time frame.  Like if a human has a time frame of hundred years and a big mountain may have its own time, the earth may have its own timeframe, thus finally we conclude that this is all impermanent.  So, what is it that is permanent?  So that's why we try to observe and go for that one.  

Question:    Thank You Babaji.  As Babaji has said before, the ancient scientists of the West looked outwards to the world to try and understand the world, but the scientists or the ancient sages of India looked inwards to find the reality.  So, can the external approach, can that eventually lead to the truth or does one have to look inwards? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Definitely, I used to tell, in different parts of the world people try to look for sun, moon, earth and like this, external world, our great sages who are spiritual giants and they were in fact scientists; they tried to bother about the Self.  Like, “Are we born with this body? Are we going to become extinct when the body dies? If at all we exist, in which form? What is it, how to contact that one? Is it the ‘I’ feeling that is coming?”  Then they also understood - to know the truth we keenly need to observe.  Observation is so important for anything; that's what they realized.  So, when they went on observing, when they realized many things are all impermanent, it's going to disappear, including the body and the intellect of the body, anything like that one, the brain, that's what they thought of intellect.  But only as they went on, they discovered that the feeling of the Self, that ‘I’, what I talk as the consciousness of existence, is permanent, is eternal; that doesn't disappear, whatever it is.  So, like that they went introverted internally and tried to know the truth.  And they also understood that Self is the root cause of all appearance of the world also.  

Question:    Thank You, Babaji.  So, modern science looks at things that can be measured and observed.  But why is it that this truth, this consciousness itself, it cannot be measured or seen? 

Babaji Maharaj:   See, this is very important.  Now, only the mind that which is the consciousness, it can gain the consciousness of this world by getting in touch with the brain.  But the brain itself cannot get in touch with the mind.  Only the mind can catch whatever the brain reflects, it can get applied onto the brain.  Thus, it comes to know about this world also.  We all, all humanity, all creatures, all living species have obtained this consciousness of this world only through the brain, in whichever way that is present in different species, well-developed or not, that well-developed, whether it is possible to do a thinking or not possible, like this type of thing.  Whereas humans have an edge, because we have a well-developed brain and we are able to think in our mind, applying the brains.  But whereas the brain cannot get in touch or analyze and tell the world that “This is the mind.  I am able to do this one.”  It doesn't do like that one.  Simply, thus, the brain acts like a computer, like an artificial intelligence in fact.  Until the mind doesn't get applied, it remains as an artificial intelligence.  That's why we tell, if mind simply accepts in good faith whatever the brain reflects, then mind becomes the victim of the brain's reflections.  Just like even if a computer, even if a folder, a hardware, anything is corrupted, if you accept it without verifying properly, so then you become a victim of whatever it is reflecting; it might be giving some wrong answers, some wrong things.  You need to discover.  That is what the important thing is.  

Whereas brain cannot make out what the mind is doing, where the mind is, the brain cannot tell.  When you meditate also, only you can gain consciousness of yourself, you understand that one.  But the brain cannot tell the world – see, like in New York also, when a scientist was talking to me, people have been able to detect the waves of the brain, but nobody has been able to detect the mind and its waves so far.  This is important.  What a person is thinking in the mind, that cannot be detected with the help of any instrument or any brains.  They might be able to detect the brain, its waves and to somewhat extent what are all the things, but one hundred percent what the other person is thinking, in science they cannot say, “This is what this person is thinking.”  Then everybody would have discovered about humanity who is good, who is really evil, who is planning to kill whom, all these things would have come into outside, would have been exposed, but this doesn't happen if we observe.  That's because the brain cannot detect the mind, whereas the mind can detect the brain’s waves, catches its reflections and thus gains the consciousness of this world also.  So, that's what it is.  Then that mind is what it is.  That is the Self.  From there only the consciousness of our own existence is coming.  That's what the ‘I’ feeling is.  As several sages told, “Who am I?”  That knowledge of the Self, aatma saakshatkara, Self-realization.  This is what one realizes in deeper meditations when one is able to silence the mind hundred percent, and go into a total stillness of the mind.  Then that mind’s secrets are revealed.  For this, you don't need the brain also, but brain is needed if you need to live in this world; that we should not forget.  That is why while practicing spirituality we need to keep the brain healthier.  

   Some years ago, somebody pointed out that some scientist even told that the status of Ramana Maharishi was not really healthy.  It was an ill health of something he had gone about the brain and mind, but I insisted, “No.  After completing His tapas, Maharishi Ramana, He could talk very normally of His experiences.  He behaved very normally; He did not lose any consciousness of the world.  Simply, He remained unattached to this world, in His own Self.  That is how a yogi behaves, that He is uninterested in the world, He remains in the Self because everything is impermanent.”  

   So finally, in science also, a root cause has not been able to be explained so far.  They have explained nearest cause, or even immediate cause also, but not the root cause.  When they don't understand anything, they have to give some terminology – “This is ether, this is God particle, this is something”, then afterwards it fades away in the world.  The world forgets those experiments, such things.  Further nothing comes, what it is.  Nobody knows how this world has come, a conclusive answer.  So, these are some of the points which we observe.  So, though we have very highest regard for science and scientists also, that is why we would like to tell that both science and spirituality should go together.  All of them should sit together and try to discuss the experience.  Simply, they want to study through an instrument only. Some of them, we have read articles, of studying a particular monk.  They would have simply studied the brain waves, if the brain is quiet. That means the mind is not getting applied on to the brain too much, then the brain waves could be minimum.  Something like that, maximum that they can find out.  More than that, what the mind is doing, whether the mind is in itself or whether the mind is thinking something, they cannot make out.  This is what is my opinion.  

Question:    Thank You, Babaji.  So, finally all definitions need to be given up.  So, any theories that science might come up with, it will be never-ending.  There will be more and more theories, but never quite getting to the truth.  Is that right, Babaji? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, exactly.  This is my opinion too.  See, if we look into that, every six months or some few years a new theory keeps coming.  What hitherto humanity thought about this, “It is not like this, it is like this”, a new theory has come out.  They keep discovering new things, are there.  There is never-ending galaxies and galaxies and Milky Ways and Milky Ways and appearance and disappearance, planets appearing, planets disappearing.  These things are all happening in the world.  But why is it happening and how? These two things are elusive.   

Question:    So, Babaji, consciousness is the fundamental reality, the existence value that Babaji talks about.  Could Babaji say a little bit more about this existence value? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, you see, consciousness is that one thing which has the ability to be creative, imagine.  It can imagine anything, a story, a character, personalities - like that it can imagine.  And then when we observe in deeper meditations, when this consciousness can solidly gather more powerfully in its potency, at that time when it can imagine, when that becomes the creativity, it can create a thing.  Like a mental projection, I have told.  First, the beginning is the imagination quality.  It is able to be creative; that itself is a quality.  It's not an ordinary thing, because imagination means we tend to think of it very ordinarily.  “O, he is imagining.  That he is all.  Nothing is true.”  Not that imagination - it can be creative; when it becomes concentrated, mind, then it can strongly become creative.  Like you start thinking about one personality solidly.  When you become totally obsessed, that personality appears to you.  And then when you do more meditation and you go into that bhava, that emotional attachment to that personality, that personality might appear as if he's coming and eating with you, sitting with you.  These are all we call it as mental projection.  So, these are all not ordinary things.  Then when you do tapas, a manifestation can happen.  Due to the powerful resolution that the mind had created for itself from time immemorial or never, when it happened nobody knows. A personality might appear -  it would appear as if this physical world is like this, to that level of strength.  That is the strength potency of the picture.  What you call it nowadays as high-resolution pictures, megapixels or whatever it is.  So, this one could be much, much more millions and millions of more megapixels picturization that this world has happened, a higher consciousness which is higher than this entire world.  

For example let us take the space, space as the supreme consciousness.  Whatever the world appearance is there, any distance, any light years distance that the scientific instruments can discover a planet or exoplanet or whatever they want to call, any milky ways, any such systems, whatever happens, but space is bigger than that.  If that space is the consciousness, so that consciousness will have the power to create this type of world.  So, that is the creativity, that is the technology that is possible, a higher consciousness.  So, that’s what we can realize in deeper samadhi when we merge with that one, the experience of that consciousness that can produce in any way.  That’s how we get to see the manifested form, but we were taught by our Master not to react to this form so that you merge into the Self; eventually you realize the Self is important.  

That is how in spirituality finally we realize this entire universe is impermanent and cannot give us a permanent happiness that which our mind is looking for.  As long as it is mind, it looks for peace and happiness.  In this world also it tries to look for happiness, whether you go to moon, you go to Mars or anywhere, you look for some happy news, something that is useful to earth, something which we can gain a power or we can gain… we can become rich or something like that one, either through knowledge or a materialistic thing, anything, but it is impermanent finally.  

That is what we try to think, though we are all excited when such experiments are done, such achievements are done by humanity, it is wonderful, it may be helpful.  Finally, we should not forget that humans need to have understanding about their own minds, that we need to tame our mind, make it purified so that we learn to consider about each other.  So, that is how our Indian Prime Minister declared this experiment, this reaching of the moon is not just for India, it is for the entire world.  That tendency needs to be maintained, that temperament needs that we all live for each other, we live for the entire world.  The whole world should be benefited; that is the larger cause thinking. There need not be any secrecy or just we want to have it to ourselves only.  So, that tendency in humanity needs to be there, then it will be beneficial, both science and spirituality should go together, so that we keep our minds purified, understand things better.  Whatever we discover or invent, that should be useful for humanity.  Its life should be enhanced, life quality should be enhanced, thinking quality of human beings should be enhanced to a much better level.  Like our sages in ancient times, when they realized the Self, their thinking quality rose to the highest level, “May all beings in all the worlds be happy.”  This is what they prayed.  They never thought of their selfishness.  So, thus in both ways it should be beneficial. It can be beneficial only when our mind also becomes really purified, to think of a larger cause.  

Question:    Thank You Babaji.  Baba, it seems that faith is important in both.  For instance, in today's society, with science we have faith that science is right, and we believe in the experiments that these scientists do, and we read the articles perhaps and believe it because we have faith, and Babaji has said that perhaps people don't have the same kind of faith in spirituality or yogis who have achieved that truth.  Do we need to have that faith then in spirituality too? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, we need to understand the spirituality in its right sense which has the knowledge which has come to us through our great sages of Rig Vedic era, through which we have obtained the teachings called Upanishads, and some great Self-realized Master's teachings.  Not the mythical powers, not the magical powers, all this nonsense has given a misconception about spirituality.  Spirituality is a science which goes for existence value for a truth that you experience in your deeper consciousness.  So, that consciousness, this is what the understanding is.  You see, first your consciousness is preoccupied with its own imaginations.  So, that is why it is unable to realize the truth of existence.  So, first you need to achieve silence of the mind, give up all other thoughts and imaginations; that is what is important.  Then, you will be able to realize what the truth of existence about yourself is, and you will also realize that is the ultimate truth, that is the cause of all the entire universe and the world, that Supreme Consciousness when you merge with it.  So, that is what is important, but you will understand this created world is only impermanent and cannot give us permanent happiness.  

However, this world can be useful, if only we all, all humanity can keep our minds purified and learn to consider about each other, that we all need to live happily.  We all need to realize first, this world is our abode, for now at least, for humanity and all creatures; all of us need this world and this world can sustain all of us, and we all can live happily, if only we learn to consider about each other.  For this, spirituality is very much necessary, that we purify our minds.  We love science, we have very highest regard for science, we salute those scientists, so hard they work and they achieve results.  When they work, they work with total faith that this lander is going to land on the moon; they need to have faith.  If they don't have faith, they won't be working.  So, that is what is important.  In the same way, you need to read, understand Upanishads, those teachings and understand that this can work.  If you can work out to silence your mind, then it works.  Then you see, observe your mind what it is.  It is a pure consciousness and it is you, yourself.  Just now you are thinking, “This is my mind”, but you don't know where that mind is; in the naked eyes nobody has seen.  To this you have to become quiet mentally.  Then the attention of the mind goes introvert to itself.  That is what is important.  We have given the example as like you are watching a movie, you need to stop the movie so that your attention comes back to yourself, that you are just sitting and watching a movie, you are not in the movie. 

So, such a havoc the consciousness when it imagines can create, showing an unreal thing as a reality.  And thus, it does not give us happiness.  We are all looking for happiness.  We all need to be happy.  To be happy is our existence right.  But if we do not realize our own existence, so that's what it is.  Here, we realize it is we who need to know about ourselves.  Then it will be easy to know about this world also.  It can go on, the research can go on, it is a never-ending process.  Everything can be amazing and a wonder.  In our own lives fifty years we saw so much of change in the world.  So many things came, the recording things came.  Tapes came and the CDs came and flash drives came, thumb drives came.  And it's going on and on and on, amazing nature.  The more that you can tap, it is available, it is coming out, it is coming out.  As your intelligence works, you are able to apply the brains and do research, do research.  More new things keep coming.  So that means this nature is never ending.  This amazing Ultimate Truth is the boundless.  That is why one word, the great sages used of the olden days, ancient times was Ananta, which has no end.  You cannot conclude.  Today you have discovered this and you cannot say, "This is all.  We don't have to invent anything, we don't have to discover anything, there is nothing."  There is so much to invent, so much to discover.  It will always be.  It's a never-ending process.  But final peace is when you discover yourself that which is the end.  It means beyond that there is nothing else.  And that Self itself is boundless.  Its capacity, its existence, everything is simply boundless.  

Question:   Thank You Babaji.  So, Baba, when we sit to meditate, we are applying a method and we want to see then evidence of a result.  Like in science you apply a method and you see the results.  Is it important Babaji that we see the evidence that there is change going on, that there is progress in our meditation? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, always whether in science or in spirituality, when you want to experience evidentially, the quality of experiment needs to be there.  Say, if something wrong goes into the lunar module, it cannot land on the moon; it will crash and it will die.  So, to make it land onto the moon, so much of work needs to be done.  Research, understanding, applying wisdom, in which speed, they have to calculate everything.  All calculations have to happen.  So, in the same way, those sages calculated.  Just now they understood our mind is simply imagining, consistently it is imagining.  So thus, it is busy and preoccupied with its own imagination.  And in Upanishads when they discussed, they also understood, “If we continue to imagine, we cannot know the truth.  That imagination needs to be stopped.”  When they discussed these things come, lines come. “The imagination needs to be stopped so that we can know the truth.  When the imagination stops, then only we can know the truth.”  As long as there is imagination, we get to see only the imagination.  So, our own consciousness, when it becomes mind, when it imagines, it cannot give the truth.  Because this mind, it gives whatever it imagines; only that thing it gives.  “This man is our enemy.”  It gives that, imagines.  It cannot give.  Even if it is a friend also, it cannot understand.  Because the mind is imagining this is an enemy, and it can give only as enemy.  Might be a good friend.  Might be nothing.  We don't know what the truth is.  We have decided this is apple because everybody calls it as apple.  More than that, we don't know.  “Why do you want to call this apple?”  “Everybody calls it apple.  Everybody recognizes it as apple.  But how can we prove that this is apple?  Simply, we have recognized it as apple.  We have recognized it as a fruit.  It is a thing which exists, which comes, and which disappears.  We can eat it.  So, based on certain qualities, we recognized into a name.  We gave it a name.  “This is a fruit.  This fruit is apple.”  And that comes to stand.  Because everybody recognizes it as an apple.  Everybody recognizes it is a fruit.  Because this body can eat that fruit.  It is edible.  It is possible.  Like that.  But finally, we really don't know.  If we are sincere, we don't know what it is.  It was there in this world.  It appeared, and we just ate it.  And we liked it.  We saw we did not die.  And then we went on eating that one.  

So, that's how things have happened.  Everything is imagined in this world.  But whatever we have imagined, we want to conclude it as a truth, fundamental truth, whereas that is not the fundamental truth.  What we know about the world is only a little bit.  We don't know much about this world.  Why is it happening?  How is it happening?  What all is going to happen now?  Nobody knows.  About this world also, what is going to happen in a hundred years, nobody knows.  People can predict, people can guess, people can have a longer vision.  So, whatever is happening today, they can predict; “Maybe fifty years after it is going to be like this.  Much more dangerous.  Just at the press of a button, the earth can burst into pieces.”  That type of prediction somebody can give.  That power might come.  But how dangerous it's going to be, can anyone think about it?  That should not be coming.  That's why, jokingly, I have told, it is lucky that we have not found any living species anywhere nearby because if they are strong, they are going to invade and destroy us, if we are strong, we are going to invade them and destroy them.  This has been the human nature.  One country has not allowed the other country to live in peace.  It has simply invaded and occupied.  Why was this necessary?  Humans could have thought if the right intelligence was there,  “Hey, let me live happily in my country.  Let them live happily in their country.”  Why human beings do not think on these lines?  Why the science has not given them the thinking capacity? 

That's why both science and spirituality should go together.  Science is great.  Scientists are great.  Always, science or spirituality is never wrong.  See, one sentence today I tell.  A scientist may become a fraud.  In the same way, a spiritual leader may be a fraud.  But spirituality is not fraud.  Science is not fraud.  Science is existence.  Spirituality is also existence.  So, that is what is needed that we all go together.  Sit down, instead of looking down at the other about the subject.  This needs to be understood that the science cannot be wrong.  Spirituality cannot be wrong.  A person following spirituality may become wrong or a fraud.  A person doing scientific research may become wrong or a fraud.  But not all scientists are wrong.  Not all spiritual leaders are wrong.  There are those who are Self-realized Masters who talk sincerely, but people do not want to notice.  Fifty thousand people go.  If one person is talking colorfully all the wrong things, they are ready to listen.  All the media pay attention to that thing.  One person says all wrong things in the name of spirituality.  That is why faith in the system has gone.  It has to, we need to have faith.  It is a science, spirituality is.  These things they thought.  “So first we get rid of the imagination of the mind.  Then let us see what the mind is actually.”  Then they discovered “This mind is consciousness of our own existence.  From this is where the consciousness of existence is arising.”  When they focused on that, focused and focused and observed, then they realized it is here.  

You see, just now our consciousness is on the body, so, we tend to think this body as ours.  No matter a hundred thousand times I will tell you are not the body, you are the atman, it cannot come to the mind.  The awareness will not come.  Only when the mind stops about all other thoughts and the consciousness of existence - hold on to that one.  That is what is meditation, repeatedly we try to teach.  One more opportunity is there today that you are all sitting here with me to meditate.  Know that you just have to watch so that you become quiet.  That is the reason we are asking you to watch.  You don't have to watch anything else.  Eventually you have to watch yourself.  For that you have to become quiet.  Just watch so that you don't think anything!  Every time we give an opportunity, people have to understand that.  Then they just watch, become silent.  Then the amazing secrets are revealed.  Not until then.  Until then it will always be a wonder; “Why this, what will happen?”, all these things keep happening.  So, this is the science.  This is what the great sages understood and thought about it. And they went for that; “Let me observe.”  That is how probably the meditation techniques have been  evolved since very, very ancient times, time immemorial, the Rig Vedic era, even much before; nobody knows when this came into existence.  People want to believe this came from God.  We can believe, no problem in it.  Actually, this must have come inspired from the Divinity, the Ultimate Truth only has given. The same Ultimate Truth which has given the world, which has given the science has given the spirituality also.  

   So, we have to understand, follow the instructions of a Master with total faith.  You don't have to blindly believe the result.  But the methods you have to follow.  If the scientist tells “You have to experience in your laboratory, you have to add these chemicals.  You have to put these things.  You have to put like these things.  You have to observe through a telescope and you have to build a telescope much more powerful so that you can observe a thousand or five thousand light-year distance things”, you have to do that one.  Only then you can watch.  Simply by standing, nobody can make you watch.  “O, come on Zen, you just remove your specs and you can see the galaxies.”  You cannot see galaxies like that.  You need to have a telescope.  Here, the telescope is the consciousness.  You need that consciousness to watch yourself.  But for that, you need to gain that consciousness of existence to get rid of the mind’s imaginations.  

Facilitator:   Thank You so much Babaji for these amazing truths.    

Question:   Firstly, I wanted to congratulate You and India on the successful moon landing.  

Babaji Maharaj:   Thank you.  We are happy.  

Same Questioner:   Secondly, I wanted to ask you, why is the mind so easily influenced by the brain every day?  Why can't the mind have the power to…

Babaji Maharaj:    Lack of practice to keep yourself under your control is the basic reason.  You need to practice so that you don't become victim of an external object, anything that it is.  You should be able to restrain, and apply your own proper intelligence, what is truth, how it can be.  So, that needs to be, you should be able to observe.  So, that is why spiritual practices are very necessary.  Spiritual practices means, so that you can control your mind.  You remain the master of your mind.  You have to follow the exercises then it will be possible for you not to get influenced by the brain's reflections easily.  

Same Questioner:   Thank You.  Thank you.  

Question:   Hello, Babaji.  You answered my first question, so thank You, as You were talking.  My second question which was related is that some people use, or many people now, including scientists are using chemicals like psilocybin, that's found in mushrooms, ayahuasca, medicines from frog skin, and so on, to actually still the mind.  And to help people that have kind of mental illnesses, so a lot going on in the mind.  My question is, what will happen - will the influences on their mind when they're stilled in this more artificial way, will the influences be the same as meditation, or will they be distorted? 

Babaji Maharaj:   No.  In meditation and spiritual pursuit, this is totally prohibited.  Because any such medicine temporarily suppresses the brain's reflections, brain waves.  When there is nothing to catch, the mind experiences stillness or the quietness.  It becomes unconscious of the surroundings or the world.  Then it experiences happiness.  Well, medically, I'm not sure; medical experts only will know if they are using for any medicinal purposes is different.  But not to suppress the brain waves, not to quieten the mind is not at all possible.  In spirituality, you need to keep your brain's health intact, not to use any such suppressing methods, and naturally quieten the mind by ‘watching’ technology.  These are all very natural ways in which nothing is harmful; your health is always maintained.  This is what my opinion and recommendation is.  

Same Questioner:   So, are You saying then the brain, when someone might take that medication, then the brain probably will still be a bit active and then influence in an imaginative way? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, once the medicine's quality is gone, then it arises much more strongly, it jumps up.  So, that is not good.  So, only on a medical supervision, for a while this might be necessary for somebody, but I'm not an authority on that point.  But spiritually, one must not use any of these things.  Even mushrooms also, sometimes I have heard about this.  In some countries, this has been used, but it is wrong.  It cannot help in meditation.  

Same Questioner:   Okay, thank You Babaji.  

Question:   Pranaam Babaji, I'll try to be quick.  I'm a medical scientist, and I don't really believe in the supernatural and stuff.  But I was just wondering why do You believe this story, that Swamiji, you know, so the Jangama Deva came out of the fruit? 

Babaji Maharaj:   You see, nobody else saw the Jangama Deva when He appeared, but one thing, why we believe is, Swamiji did twelve-year tapas.  The world saw that transformation from an ordinary weaver boy becoming a great yogi and such knowledge and wisdom came out of Him.  That is more important, which we got to see; the world saw that one.  So, when the result comes, you believe the cause also.  

Same Questioner:   Thanks, Babaji. 

Question:   Pranaams Baba.  So, the other day, somebody sent me a very interesting video where Meher Baba was speaking about space and science and the size of the universe.  And he said, "Numberless universes are continuously created, sustained, and destroyed.  This process of creation continues so long as God goes on imagining.  The creation goes on spreading out ad infinitum.  For each soul creates infinitely out of its own unconscious and finite intelligence."  So, I was wondering if, basically, the universe it seems is like a composite of all the minds’ thoughts and imaginations. So when a single ego or a single personality dies or passes away, does that mean that those galaxies that that person had imagined also disappear?  Is this what dissolution is? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yes, definitely.  When an individual passes away, but if his consciousness can become silent once for all, that is what is Self-realization, then everything ends there.  So, then he merges with the Self.  That's what one has to bother individually.  Otherwise, it's very mind-boggling if you start thinking of every individual, you will go mad.  It is very mind-boggling.  You just have to bother the world that is within your consciousness so that you get rid of that imagination and then realize your real Self is what is necessary and recommended.  

Same Questioner:   Okay, thank You Baba.  So, it explains the size then, because so many different minds are thinking of so many different… 

Babaji Maharaj:   You just do not have to bother because whoever has created that mind, those minds, that Supreme Consciousness will bother about it.  You just bother about your own mind, is important.  This is the recommended teaching by great Masters, Upanishads and we all, our opinion also.  

Same Questioner:   Thank You, Baba.  

Question:   Namaste  Babaji.  I'm a student.  Actually, I'm getting thoughts to convert to this sanyasa.  That type of thoughts that are coming to mind.  Actually I am preparing for other exams also, but I'm getting thoughts like moving away from the whole world and deep meditating, etc.  I'm still confused about why these types of thoughts are coming.  Why I'm not interested in any job, etc. I want to clarify why my thinking is like that.  

Babaji Maharaj:   You need to have a clarification about yourself to what you want.  So, you observe and ponder over your own mind.  If it's repeatedly coming, if you want to do it, you do it.  Otherwise, you think that this is not for me, I want to study, I want to have a job, you go for the job, that's all.  Because maybe due to your previous lives’ sadhanas, these thoughts might be coming, but if it has to be permanent and once for all. You should be able to go with total faith.  It should not be a temporary, excited thing; that you have to take care.  You ponder over your mind for some more time properly and then try to take action in that direction.  

Same Questioner:   How to ponder over that idea, whether it is correct or not?

Babaji Maharaj:   You visit some ashrams and try to consult the monks who are there.  They can guide you better and inspire you what to do.  

Same Questioner:   I went to Lingayat Mutt nearby.  I asked about that.  They said that it's too early to decide about that.  “You just go on with your preparation and studies.  Later you decide.”  But still, I'm not getting any interest in reading books.  

Babaji Maharaj:   For some time you study, you do your studies and if this continues for long time like a year or two, three also, you are unable to give up this idea, then you go to some ashram and you can join and become a monk also if you want to.  It will have to be your decision finally, once you are an adult, you have crossed the age of eighteen.  

Same Questioner:   I got thoughts like someone is infusing thoughts into my mind continuously to push to that side, almost every one hour, two hours.  I think I got hallucinations about something - my personal experience, I'm thinking like that.  

Babaji Maharaj:   No, no, these things are mind’s hallucinations, happens; nobody else influences.  It is within your mind.  You think and what you want to do, you should have the firm faith in yourself, what you want to do and you should be able to do that one.  This is what is necessary.  You should not have a fickle mind, either this or that.  You want to be in the world, you go into the world, you do studies and get a job; or you want to become a monk, you go to some ashram, become a monk.  So, that's what is important.  Once you take up that responsibility, you must not look back, that is very important.  

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  What Einstein described in the space, it is full of energy particles and they have been variously labeled or characterized as alpha particles, muons, gluons – discovering newer and newer particles, energy particles.  So, is it spiritually the same as consciousness of energy in the universe; are they the same? 

Babaji Maharaj:   Yeah, spiritually the terminologies given are the consciousness and energy, Shiva and Shakti.  So, that's what has been explained in the same concept.  It is not explained as particles; it is supremely infinite in nature.  

Same Questioner:   Thanks, Babaji.  

Question:   Pranaams Babaji.  Babaji, I have I would say a question which haunts me a number of times.  Though I feel I am a little spiritual and I would love to sit and pray, but I am unable to do so.  I can sit and probably close my eyes for a long time, but I can't do mantra charan and though I know the mantra, but I cannot sit and do the mantra charan and they say that if you want peace of mind, you need to do all this.  So, I would like to seek Your guidance on this.  

Babaji Maharaj:   By practice.  Practice is the real mantra; it is important.  Little, little - you sit for five minutes, then ten minutes, then slowly raise this to half an hour to one hour; will be possible.  One day you will be able to do it.  Sit in any comfortable posture.  No need to be on the ground only.  If that is difficult, you can sit on a chair also.  In any way you can sit, just keep your back and neck straight and then do it.  Do it.  Firmly do it.  Even for five minutes do, for some time. Then once you feel comfortable, you can raise for some more time, will be possible.  Practice is the real mantra with total dedication, discipline, having faith in God you practice that.  It will definitely come.  We will pray for you.  

End of Questions and Answers   

End of Session