Faith and Duality | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.171

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Atma Sakshatkar | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.171
Recorded on 4 April 2024 with Malaysian participants.

0:00 Introduction
0:13 What is the innocence that is necessary and how is it connected to faith?
2:24 When we have faith in the Guru, are we supposed to not question?
3:30 Does the Guru's name serve as a point of focus?  How does one, without a Guru, get their anchor of support?
5:42 If we believe pain and pleasure is not real, should we tolerate people who do wrong things?
10:30 Through practice of meditation do we avoid getting attached to the outcome?
11:18 What are the teachings of duality and non-duality?
17:47 Does merging in the ocean eliminate all imagination including that of our Guru or our Ishtar Deva?
21:47 What is prana?
28:09 Is the inner voice the sixth sense?
29:29 An uncontrollable feeling and crying when first meeting Babaji - is this good?
31:03 Babaji's closing comments

___
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Transcript

Faith and Duality, In Quest of Truth, online Q&A, #171

Recorded on 4th April, 2024 with Malaysian Participants

Questioner:

Thank you, Babaji, for this session today. I'll start with the first question. 

In one of the talks of Babaji previously, Babaji was talking about faith, and Babaji mentioned that an innocence in the mind is necessary, means the mind is totally pure. Babaji, what is the innocence that Babaji is talking about? And how is it connected to having faith? Is it something that we can train ourselves to have an innocent mind, or is it a natural part of existence for some people based on their upbringing and exposure? 

Shri Babaji:

This innocence what I talk, is purity in the mind, and the mind shall not have any doubts, in total faith it takes. Just like you try to teach the child something, and the child picks up in total faith. 

So in that same way, Swamiji used to talk, if bhakti marga can be taught while one is still a child, then they pick up because of the innocence. 

Well, here innocence doesn't mean that you fool yourself. An innocence is purity in the heart or in the mind, so then you take it in good faith. Then whatever the Master teaches, you don't keep arguing, and you don't misunderstand, and you will take it in good faith, and then get into the job of doing sadhana. 

So that type of innocence, what I keep talking, which cultivates and develops the faith in the Guru and the teachings and sadhana, and it induces self-confidence also tremendously. So this innocence is what I'm talking. 

Same Questioner:

Babaji, when you mentioned having faith in what the Guru says, does that mean that we are not supposed to question, or these questions that we have that we pose to Babaji for clarification?  

Shri Babaji:

For the question two different aspects are there. If you have a doubt, you are welcome to ask for clarification, always. That question is always welcome. 

But questioning means, when you doubt the Master Himself and doubt the system, that doubt, that questioning is not proper. That's what Swamiji used to tell, argumentative nature of a person - even Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to tell, a person with argumentative nature can never understand the spiritual truths, and cannot go for that. So that is different. 

But with all reverence, if you want to ask a question for clarification from the Master, that is always welcome. 

Same Questioner:

Thank you, Babaji. 

The next question. "Today Babaji's body is here and giving talks, but Babaji's body will go away one day. But the name Shivabalayogi will always be there." 

Babaji, does the Guru's name work as our point of focus, and help us to subside our monkey mind into single pointedness? 

Some do not have their specific Guru or Ishta Devata. They learn and adapt to the teaching by various texts and gurus they are comfortable with. How about someone who does not have a specific Guru? How will they get their anchor of support in the name or divine or Guru? 

Shri Babaji:

If one has a specific Guru, that is recommended, because the mind will not get confused for the student. Because different teachers are likely to have used different terminologies also, that too, if all teachers are not Self Realized, there can be different type of language and teachings also which can be confusing for a person. So that one needs to be careful. 

Books can be very helpful, it can be a guiding light, and it can be motivating and inspiring definitely. But while reading books one should not get confused. " Babaji used to tell like this, but this other Maharaji is telling like this." So that type of confusion must not happen. For that purpose Swamiji always used to tell that if you have one Guru that is recommended always. 

However, if you read about other Gurus or any other texts also for comfort, it's really no harm, Divine will not get annoyed, or the Guru also will not get annoyed. But you have to be careful so that you don't get confused. If you follow one teaching, then you will reach the goal also in the right sense and right way. 

Same Questioner:

Thank you, Babaji. 

Our next question. "Whatever appears as the physical body is not our Self. The true Self is the Atman, beyond birth and death. Nobody can cause us pain." 

Babaji, if we believe that pain and pleasure is not real, should we go on tolerating people who do wrong things? Sometimes people manipulate and make us or others look bad in order to make themselves look good. Should we embrace the situation hoping the Divine will do what is needed, and not react to clarify things? 

Shri Babaji:

No, this is a misunderstanding. See, when we talk, the physical body is not our real Self, we are not the physical body, we are beyond that - the Atman, beyond the birth and death of the physical body. But when we are in this world, through this body only we are in this world. This body needs to react. This body needs to defend itself. This body needs to be taken care of also. Otherwise, if we lose this body we won't be able to interact with this world. Like if the Guru loses the body, you won't be able to receive the teachings physically. So that's what happens. 

So in this world, you have to be careful. As Ramakrishna also used to be telling, if a tiger comes, the tiger also is God, but you have to be careful with the tiger otherwise it will eat your body. It may not be able to eat you - you are the Atman - but your body will be gone. For that you have to defend your body. So in this drama of the world, if people are wicked, if they are trying to trouble you, they are trying to belittle you, humiliate you, you have a right to defend yourself. 

Simply, practically if you practice meditation, then your mind will be silent and it will not absorb any of these imprints. For the mind, it will not be a true world, it will be a drama. But for physical body you have to behave accordingly. You have to eat food also to sustain the physical body, you have to take rest, everything becomes necessary. So you need to keep it separately, what the mind is. 

So if you meditate, the mind will be taken care. Mind will regain its pure form of pure consciousness and merge with the Self, and the Self Awareness is there always, you will not get carried away with the happenings of the world. 

Like somebody misbehaves with me. I might show annoyance, but that doesn't mean that I will lose control over myself. I will use it only that much that is necessary, and then I will withdraw myself, control myself, so that I don't misbehave. But I will defend this body, it becomes very necessary. So like that we have to understand and live in this world. 

One must not misunderstand - body, physical world, and the mind, Self, they are all two different things - Self is different. Like you watch in the movie, whatever that has been produced in the movie that will happen like that, it has to happen. If the villain is going to win over, then nobody will watch the movie. Hero has to win. Good has to win over the bad thing always. So that will be the predicted drama. But you will be aware that you are watching a drama. Mentally you don't get involved. Physically whatever is needed if you need to act upon, you have to act upon. This is very important. 

That's why we always tell, just by theory you cannot understand the Advaita and behave like that in this world, you are likely to misunderstand. Like Ramakrishna's story, the man, the student who was listening to Advaita teaching, he forgot that elephant rider also is God. He thought if the elephant has God in it it should not be harming, but it harmed him physically. But the elephant rider was asking him to give way. Then the master ridiculed him, "The elephant rider also, he has God in him. He was warning you to give way, why didn't you give way?" So you have to be like that in this world. 

So practice of meditation ultimately only can help you to understand the Advaita,and behave in this world without getting mentally affected. 

Same Questioner:

So Babaji, can I conclude that we still need to act and take the necessary actions on whatever is happening, but through the practice of meditation we don't get attached to the outcome of what happens?

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, outcome and what the others did or you are going to do, you should not get attached mentally. Just do it as a duty, simply. Then your mind will remain detached. That practice will come only through practice of meditation only. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You, Babaji. 

The next question is about duality and non-duality. "When you begin, you begin as jivatma, wanting to meditate on Divinity, Paramatma. You are the droplet. Unknown to you, you become connected." 

Babaji, can you please elaborate on the duality and non-duality teaching? Which of the concepts is encouraged for us to follow? 

During the practice of meditation, as the jivatma is slowly progressing, our love for our Guru remains. Does that mean that's an attachment and we are still in duality? 

Shri Babaji:

See, this thing, at that stage both are equally important. In fact, there is one more today I will tell – Vishishitadvaita also - duality, non-duality, and the Vishishitadvaita. 

So, a trinity - three Acharyas happened in South India. One was Adi Shankaracharya who propagated the non-duality, Advaita. And Madhavcharya who propagated jivatma and paramatma, the duality, Dvaita philosophy. Ramanujacharya propagated Vishishitadvaita. His philosophy, he said the jivatma is an umsha, is a portion, part of the Divinity, Final Truth only, not different, though yet it is not exactly the Divinity. So like that they propagated. All the three are like that.

Now, for a seeker, when you begin, you begin as a droplet - the ocean is your God - you need an anchor to meditate. That's what you are doing in this silent meditation also, though without naming you are asked to watch in-between [the eye-brows], slowly as the mind gets cleared, the mind becomes purified, it starts going towards its origin, that which is the Divine, recognized as Divine. 

But as it starts going, once after it comes here [Baba points in-between eyebrows] in the ajna chakra, then the seeker feels as if he is above here [Babaji touches the top of His head], in the 'sahasrara kamala'. When the mind becomes pure consciousness it gets detached from the brain's clutches totally, and one feels it here [Baba touches the top of His head]. There is no thousand petals lotus here. Symbolically, teachers have spoken. When the mind is here it is totally purified and ready to go to Samadhi, ready to merge with the Ultimate Truth. So, it has blossomed, just like a thousand petals lotus. Just like that is different, a thousand petals is different. So many people misunderstand.

That's why I was telling, just by listening to theory you cannot practice the non-duality also, you will be confused, every step can be confusing. So you must not do that one. Practice meditation, one day that Advaita will come to you, when you would experience the Truth, when the merger happens, when the 'I' also disappears. As long as the 'I' thought is there, there is a duality. 'I' and ‘mine’ or ‘my truth’, all like this. They all disappear in the Advaita, finally when you merge. Until then, you have to be practicing. 

So to begin with it is better to practice jivatma and Paramatma. And do sadhana - do the silent meditation - this will automatically take you to the Advaita. Without bothering, without thinking, just go on meditating, because you have to become silent, in every way you have to become silent. All the things in the mind disappear, dissolve, then it becomes pure consciousness. Finally, the 'I' thought also disappears. The 'I' also you will understand, was only an individual imagined self which never existed. So, like that. So then when the merger happens, only one Single Self exists, that is the Truth. 

For that, there is no attribution. Only one Single Self is there. There is no Divine, no devotee. As long as there is a student there is a Master. And “Gurur Naiva Shisya”, Adi Shankaracharya sings in his Nirvana Ashtakam, "Na cha vyoma bhumir na tejo na vaayuhu." You know, in the same way He tells, “Gurur Naiva Shisya, Mata pita naiva mata cha janma", like that He goes on telling. “Neither this nor that, 'I' also is not there finally, only one Single Self, it exists in Itself”. So, that is how you slowly start with the jivatma - Paramatma duality, and then go to Advaita eventually.

Advaita is not a thing to be practiced in the world. You just be there, that is all. When you are One with it, it is automatically in that. 

Just for understanding the teaching was given. Finally one Single Truth exists, one Single Self exists. But you don't go on practicing to tell, "I am Advaita, I am Advaita," there is no such claim.  It all ends, every definition ends. You simply become silent, so that is how you have to practice, only practically it happens. By theory, it's very difficult to understand. As I told, every moment it can be very confusing for people. 

That is why Swamiji never gave a name for His philosophy, never tried to teach any such thing. He simply insisted, emphasized, “Just meditate, and know the truth to yourself. You meditate, and then you will know what it is.” Like Buddha, Buddha also kept quiet. So, like Swamiji also like Buddha He kept quiet, that's why. In silence only He taught, silent was His message. 

So, that is what this duality, non-duality, all the things are. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You, Babaji. I'll go to the next question. 

"When you have full faith in that name of your Guru and your mind gets connected, you get to see the form of your Guru manifesting." 

Is it our imagination and thought that is causing the manifestation, Babaji? Does merging in the Ocean eliminate all imagination, including the bond between us and our Guru, or our Ishta Deva? 

Shri Babaji:

You see, in these points, again you have to understand. You have watched Babaji. Though we Realized the Self, merged with the Divine - so there was no Guru, no disciple, in our consciousness neither this nor that - but yet, in this world, we behave for the worldly manners, we consider Swamiji as our Guru. We always tell everybody, “Swamiji is my Guru, and I am at His Lotus Feet only.” This is needed in this world to recognize like this. 

Sitting here in this body if I start talking, "There is no difference between me and my Guru", that is not knowledge, that is arrogance, that is a totally nonsense thing. Nobody should try to take the Guru's place in this world. So, that is essential. When you are in this world, you are a disciple, He is a Guru. 

That is the reason We requested everybody to call me only as Babaji, because we all called Swamiji as Swamiji in our Mission, so that people should not get confused. Calling me also Swamiji, calling Swamiji also Swamiji. Now, they are clear. Babaji means it is the disciple. Swamiji means it is the Guru. In this world, that is important. But within me, when I am not there, there is nothing else, only one Guru. 

Like, there is a beautiful saying of Hanumanji also. When asked about this Dvaita and Advaita, He says, "In Advaita I am not there also, only Sri Rama, nothing else exists." And in Dvaita He says, "I am there as a dasa, dasya bhava. I am there as the servant of Sri Rama, and Sri Rama is my Master, my Lord. " So like that He tells, explains that one. That is how we all have to behave. We learned this thing from our Gurus also. 

Like, Swamiji Himself never claimed Himself to be God or any such thing. So, these things have really no meaning, Swamiji used to tell. "God is God and we are that. Yogeshwara is Lord Shiva and we are Yogendra, we are Yogi. I am Shiva's disciple, Lord Shiva is my Guru, Shankar Bhagwan is my Guru." Like that Swamiji also behaved in this world with proper manners. This is what is needed to be understood properly, and then behave accordingly.

When you meditate, when you are able to do Tapas, automatically everything will go away in your consciousness. When there is nothing, no imagination comes - about yourself, about anybody else - only one thing you will see, that is all. But when you come out, in this world you will also behave properly with all humility; it is very necessary to behave accordingly. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You, Babaji. Babaji, can I open to the devotees, if anyone has a question? 

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, okay. 

Same Questioner:

If anyone has a question you can raise your hand to ask directly to Babaji, or put it in the chat and I can read the question. 

Questioner:

Pranam Baba, can you hear me? 

Shri Babaji:

Yes. 

Same Questioner:

Baba, my question is, is prana, the life force, same as the cosmic energy? 

Shri Babaji:

Same, exactly same. Simply different cultures have used different terminologies. 

Like America uses Astronaut, Russia uses the name of Cosmonaut. Like that. So there is no difference, the same thing. 

Same Questioner:

So Baba, that means the origin of prana is the Atman Itself, am I right? 

Shri Babaji:

Yes. 

Same Questioner:

Okay, second question, Baba. is Prana the energy within the breath, or prana is the breath itself? 

Shri Babaji:

No, not breath, it is beyond breath, it is the Atman. When we are talking of the Atman, the breath is just to supply oxygen to the body, and taking out the carbon dioxide, that is the breath we recognize as. The Prana, Atman, is beyond these things. 

Same Questioner:

Baba, I studied in your commentary on 'Viveka Choodamani', You said that “Prana is constantly changing, but Atman is unchanging. Therefore Prana cannot be the Atman.” So, can You please explain? 

Shri Babaji:

Yeah, in that stage until the student doesn't become a Guru, they cannot become a Guru - has to be a Guru. Like that, Prana is in the mind. Means, mind has imaginations, until it has imaginations it cannot be the Atman. Atman doesn't changes, It is in the purity of Its Existence, that is what is Atman. When the Prana becomes pure consciousness, that is when it becomes Atman again, regains the form of Atman. 

Same Questioner:

Baba, if the Prana can be controlled that means Prana is something like the breath. The breath itself is Prana. 

Shri Babaji:

Nay, not breath, you are misunderstanding. It is not breath, it is not like a breath. ‘The Prana goes’ means, it is the Atman’s mind - the mind. When death happens to the body, ‘Prana goes’ means it is that mind which gives up the body and takes the next incarnation.

Same Questioner:

It's a follow up question, Baba. I read in an article that ordinarily Prana flows through two channels, ida and pingala, but with constant meditation and yogic practice, these two channels can be restrained, and the Prana flow happens through the sushumna nadhi. When this happens, one can attain the Self. Is this process same like the kundalini awakening, or can you explain further about this process, Baba?

Shri Babaji:

It is through the breath control - but the breath has to be going smoothly - respiring, inhaling and exhaling. But when you totally focus on that one, your mind becomes purified, then it lifts the kundalini also, then it merges with the Atman Self. 

Same Questioner:

So Baba, what is the connection between the Prana and the mind, controlling Prana?

Shri Babaji:

Controlling the Prana your mind becomes purified. 

Controlling the Prana means, you see, the breath, you cannot stop the breath, otherwise oxygen supply will be stopped to the body. Many people misunderstand and confuse. Controlling Prana means you control the breath so that smoothly its rhythm keeps going on, and your mind gets detached from that, and becomes purified into a pure consciousness. 

You try to understand these terminologies. Book terminologies can be very confusing for you. You forget about this Prana, Atman, anything. It is just the mind that you need to purify by practicing this meditation. And when the mind becomes purified it merges with the Atman. That is what you need to understand. I hope this is understandable for you. 

Same Questioner:

Baba, there's another follow up question, can I ask this?

Shri Babaji:

You ask.

Same Questioner:

If it is not changing, if it's unchanging, then we call it Atman, the Self. If it is changing then it is the Prana. 

Shri Babaji:

If it is changing it is the mind - forget about the Prana - I told you, you see? That's what, you don't listen to the Guru, then you will always be confused. Have faith in the Guru. 

I was seeing that you are getting confused by reading this book. Forget about Prana. Forget about ida. Forget about pingala, pangala, everything. Just know mind. Your mind is the troublesome thing which is changing in imaginations. Leave the rest to itself. And you have to cleanse this mind by practicing meditation. If the mind becomes cleansed, then the mind merges with the Self. The Self is the Atman, unchangeable. Self is unchangeable. 

People talk of theory by reading scholars, they try to give lectures and lectures and lectures, but nobody has experienced what the Truth is. If you experience the Truth, you will be precise to the point. 

This is what is understandable in the present day terminologies. You all have studied at college, so you can understand mind. You can understand cleansing of the mind,  means all thoughts, imaginations in the mind have to go - that is what will happen in the silent watching of the mind. 

You just keep watching, your Prana will be controlled automatically. Without thinking about Prana, you just watch inbetween eyebrows. I repeat again - do not keep thinking about Prana, pingala, mangala - just concentrate in between eyebrows, your mind will be purified, and then the mind will be able to merge with the Self. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You Baba.

Questioner:

Thank You Babaji.

Babaji, there's a question in the chat, can I read the question? 

Shri Babaji:

Yeah. Yes, yes. 

Same Questioner:

Babaji, the question is actually relating to the quote that Babaji sent out this morning. Today's quote, "Everybody knows what the right thing to do is." Is this what people call as the sixth sense, and why does our mind not let us listen to our inner voice? 

Shri Babaji:

Some people might call it sixth sense, but in a simple language to understand - your mind, in your antahkarana, in your consciousness - 'conscience' is the word that is used, you understand? Conscience. 

So that means your real mind, what is in there you know what the right is, but yet you might be committing mistakes and wrongdoings because of some selfish interest and some other things, influenced by some other things. So that's what we have tried to tell, everybody knows this truth what it is, yet they refuse to understand. 

So if you meditate, you will be able to execute this truth, see a larger cause always. That is the basic idea of today's quote.

Same Questioner:

Thank You Babaji. 

Babaji, there is another question. It's more of a devotee’s experience when meeting Babaji personally. 

So, the devotee said that when she met Babaji, there was this uncontrollable feeling, and she started crying. So she wanted to know, why does this happen, is it a good thing or a bad thing that it happened as such, and is it something that she needs to learn how to control so that it doesn't happen again? 

Shri Babaji:

You see, one important thing you have to understand, when you met Babaji, when you started crying, was it giving you an unknown peace and happiness within you, or was it giving you an annoyance and all such troublesome things?

If it was peace and happiness within you, that you have found something precious, then that is a good thing, isn't it? Now when you became attached to a Master, it is previous connections also. And these things are beyond explanations, it is inexplicable, such experiences. You had that experience because of previous connections, that is what it is. 

You just carry on. If it continues, then you will be able to sustain, then that experience was true, not a momentary one. That is what is important to know. 

Same Questioner:

Thank You Babaji. 

Shri Babaji:

Okay, fine, wonderful, very nice session. We discussed about some nice, lovely questions, and glad you asked those questions, giving me an opportunity to express my experience and what my Guru taught me, that's what is important. 

All of you, finally, today we were discussing the Advaita, Advaitas, Gurus, all these things. Do not go into theories much about different-different books, that's when the confusion happens with the terminologies. 

It is something, again I will tell, I have told a hundred times this example. A father and a son were fighting. Father was telling “This is my wife”. The son said “She cannot be a wife, she is mother.” Because to the son she was a mother. To the father she was a wife. Does this make any sense? The father was insisting, "No she is not a mother, she is a wife", son insisted, "No she is a mother, she cannot be a wife". There is no meaning in it. To the son she was a mother, to the husband she was a wife. 

In the same way different teachers would have used different terminologies. That's why in the present day we use this terminology - mind, pure consciousness, conscience, and the Self - this is what you have to know. Because that is where the self consciousness is coming for you. 

As I have told, another point, amongst millions of thoughts that is in your mind, one is the 'consciousness of existence.' Repeatedly I have been talking this since some years now. ‘Consciousness of existence’ means you always have a feeling that you exist. When you meditate, if you just keep watching, all thoughts and visions will disappear eventually, then this thought 'consciousness of existence' which is not an imagined thought, it will always be there. 

So that is what is important. Stick to that, you concentrate on that, that will take you back to the Real Self, that's all. 

No more theory is needed to know, it can be very confusing. That's why Swamiji always insisted, “Just meditate and know yourself.” After meditation, He said. He did not say “Read and know yourself.” By reading you will never know yourself - definitely - you will be confused about yourself. You meditate, then you can know yourself. Remember this point.

End of Session