In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Shri Babaji
In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Shri Babaji
Space - the Supreme Consciousness of Existence | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.176
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Space - the Supreme Consciousness of Existence | Thus Spake Babaji - online Q&A, No.176
Recorded on 20 April 2024 with worldwide participants.
0:00 Intro
0:07 If this space is the supreme consciousness of existence, how has it remained so hidden from us?
11:08 Is any appearance within the space not a reality, only the space itself can be a reality?
18:15 Is it the identity that we give up as our consciousness expands?
19:25 Is the same consciousness behind each of our individual consciousnesses?
22:43 Is it because the space is not relative to anything else that we can't understand it?
26:36 Why is it that we see Babaji in a physical form if Babaji is that all-pervaded space?
29:15 As we practice sadhana are we able to let go of attachment to material objects?
31:50 Can space be equated to unconditional spiritual love?
32:59 Is there experience of space sat chit ananda?
33:31 Will artificial intelligence become an extension of our consciousness?
35:22 is it right that the individual mind's thoughts and imaginations are not shared with everyone?
36:28 As the individual sense of self expands is there more of a sharing of consciousness and energy?
38:01 What is kundalini?
38:52 The Self versus no-Self in regards Buddha's teachings
43:53 Is light and space one and the same?
46:10 How does a Self-Realised master communicate with others in the world?
47:12 In the practice of meditation should we let go of any thoughts pertaining to the creation?
47:55 How long will it take for us to achieve silence in the mind?
49:46 Why don't the thoughts and imaginations also get destroyed with the end of the body?
51:55 The matter is hardly 1% of the space, why are we so stuck with the matter?
54:43 How can matter help us to get to supreme consciousness such as worshipping an idol?
56:25 We know the structure of the brain, what is the structure of the mind?
1:00:05 If parabrahman is all pervaded, why do we concentrate in-between the eyebrows to become aware of that?
1:01:38 Does the Indian term for silence carry more implication and shades of meaning than the western term?
1:02:37 What is the term for space used in India and does it have any other shade of meaning other than just space?
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Discourse: In Quest of Truth No. 176
Space – The Supreme Consciousness of Existence
You tube Link: https://youtu.be/fMCRfZ2i5pM
Recorded: 20 April 2024
Start of Questions and Answers
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Question: So, Babaji, the topic today is ‘Space - The Supreme Consciousness of Existence.’ And Babaji, the first question. Most of us all live our lives thinking that we are this body, and in this world, and our minds are consumed with all the things of the world which we continue to imagine about. And this space itself seems such an ordinary thing for a normal person, like the space between these two walls and we think it's simply a void. But, Babaji has said that it's the Supreme Consciousness of existence. Can Babaji explain a little bit about this space and even though it's the truth of existence, how has it remained so hidden from most people?
Babaji Maharaj: One of the basic clues is our own mind. As I have spoken, everybody recognizes the thoughts and visions that are in the mind. Based on these visions and thoughts only, one recognizes the mind; “These things are in my mind. My mind wants to do this. I want to go there.” All this language we use. All these are totally addressed to the mind. But what is this mind itself? Nobody has seen it in naked eyes. Even if we clear all thoughts and visions, that day also it won't be visible for the naked eyes. It will simply appear as a void place, a space. That's what we recognize with the word infinity, infinite.
But the only clue is that… like, beginning with I have told, amongst millions of thoughts that is in your mind, one is the consciousness of your own existence. You have that feeling that you always exist. Just now, because of your mental preoccupation with all the thoughts, visions, imaginations, body and so on, you would never have noticed what this consciousness of existence is. Always one would feel the body as ourselves. But, in meditation, when you understand the technique, just to watch, not to think, not to expect anything, then slowly, eventually, in due course of time, when the mind gives up its grip on the thoughts and visions… It's like the consciousness gives up its grip on the matter, then the matter dissolves, then all thoughts and visions dissolve. When they dissolve, then also we will be able to notice the consciousness of existence is there, and by then, our attention would turn on to this consciousness of existence, and we realize this consciousness of existence is coming from that infinity, which we called as mind earlier, but now it is a pure consciousness. Once the thoughts and visions are all cleared, it's a pure consciousness, but yet it appears to be as a space, a void place for the naked eyes.
When you close also, first you would expect visions, some black, color, this, that, hundreds of things. So, many, many, many people in the world will be stuck with this play only; “What vision, what color we saw, what did we see”, but we have to go further, transcend all these things, thoughts and visions and everything, then these thoughts and visions dissolve. Then we will notice the consciousness of existence is always there, in that space like appearance of mind, consciousness.
With the consciousness of existence only, we are able to recognize about the consciousness; that we are this consciousness of existence and nothing else. That means now, we are this, what hitherto we were thinking as a void place. Even in the mind also, we were thinking that this is only a void place, but this seems to be a consciousness of existence, and it has energy also in it; because of the energy only, we were able to think and be creative earlier. And that will be there even now also - even when you achieve the samadhi, then afterwards also you will be able to think; the presence of energy is always there.
That's what now we can tell, the mind is a combination of consciousness and energy. And this is the space. With this clue, we recognize the universe… some time ago, we even discussed Einstein's theory; with the universe expanding, with that the truth also expands. Somebody had written that article and the question also on the email - I discussed with him. I agree, the universe when it expands, the truth also expands. It is something like, to understand in a simple way, when your mind imagines, it spins, and in illusion it expands, and with that the thoughts and visions also go on expanding. Whatever in your mind the thoughts and visions, when they expand, along with that your mind also keeps running with that one; it can go uncontrollably. So, when it becomes troublesome, here, through meditation you control your mind, then all the thoughts and visions disappear.
So, using these factors, we conclude that the universe, and with that the truth that is expanding is of a higher consciousness, much, much more higher than our own mind. But the actual truth, the final truth is even much more higher than that consciousness truth which is expanding along with the universe. Because - this thing also I told because they asked it with a doubt, the question – “If the Ultimate Truth is all pervaded, but if it expands along with the universe, that means it is not everywhere.” I said, “How can it be?” It is all pervaded, definitely. From that, a portion that has come, which we recognize as Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara, concepts, not as human beings, as a concept, which creates, which sustains the creation, and when it is tired, it can withdraw back the creation. So, that is the concept that has been explained. So, that keeps expanding along with the universe, but it won't get involved with the universe. But the actual Ultimate Truth, which we recognize with the terminology of Parabrahma is all pervaded, and in the Mahasamadhi, in a stillness. Because without it being all pervaded, it couldn't have been the Ultimate Truth. If the Ultimate Truth is only into a certain space, and the space as void exists, that means the space becomes ultimate truth than the actual Parabrahma. The Parabrahma has to be all pervaded, only then it can become Supreme. A certain thing which is occupying a limited space cannot be Supreme. Only that thing which is occupying all, everywhere, it is simply everywhere, all pervaded - only that can be the Supreme Existence. And when it is everywhere, it doesn't have to expand, there is no more space to expand for it.
So, thus, that is what we try to tell in other words, that Brahma, Vishnu concept came, then the angels have been spoken, and finally after long journey of imagination, imagination, the human minds have come. So, human minds' potency is very less. Thus, I told, this human mind cannot handle this universe, because the potency is very less. Only a higher consciousness, higher than this universe which is handling can handle this universe. That article also says that science, Einstein saying, if that consciousness or that truth gives up its grip on the matter, the matter dissolves. Matter itself doesn't have any existence value; science tells this in the article only I read, the person who had sent me. So, that is true in our sense also. So, that is how finally we come to the point that we tell that the Ultimate Truth, which we recognize as a combination of Supreme - Supreme we use the word, because there is nothing else beyond that – Supreme Consciousness and Supreme Energy; they both are same and one, inseparable.
Question: Thank You so much Baba - so many new points there that I've haven’t heard Babaji speak before. So, Babaji was saying that there is the truth of existence which is all pervading, but there’s the appearance of this universe within this space. But Babaji also said that the space cannot be destroyed at all, it's immortal. You can remove an object, but you cannot destroy the space at all. So, does that mean the appearance within the space is not a reality, it's only the space which is reality? Is that correct?
Babaji Maharaj: Yes, you see, we all know, even common people, that the universe is impermanent. Appearance and disappearance, in its own time limit it keeps happening. One might come to an end in a hundred years, another may have the life of a hundred million years, like this in the space. From human beings, some other creatures to earth, planets, galaxies, Milky Ways and so on and on and on, never-ending. They have their own lifespan, but it is ultimately limited. That is what is Nachiketa's story. When Yamadharmaraja told, “You go for 5,000 years, you go for 50,000 years”, then Nachiketa says, “After some time that 50,000 years will come to an end. Is there anything for me to avoid coming back to You?” Yama says, “No.” That means, here, the concept is to say, impermanent. Impermanent; will always come to an end. No matter it can go for a billion years, and billions of years, it will come to an end; this body, even if we are granted to live for 5,000 billion years, after that this will come to an end one day. One person lived for 180 years, or one person lives for 90 years, it will come to an end, finally. So, that is the final truth.
So, thus, space is permanent. It doesn't change, it has no change, it is not there that it came into existence yesterday, today it is there and tomorrow space will disappear; it cannot happen. Space has given place to the entire universe. The universe is not holding the space. Though it appears in illusion that the space is inside the matter also, but space is all pervaded. Actually, the matter is in the space when we try to see this one. That is what is in some of the stories of Adi Shankara also. Lord Shankara appeared before him as an untouchable person, and when Shankaracharya said, "Give way", He said, "If there is any place outside of brahmanda…” They addressed this space as brahmanda. Brahmanda means Absolute, beyond imaginations, that is what brahmanda means. “…show me if there is any place, then I will go away there.” Impossible. That's what we all have discussed. You tell your name, your house number and street name when you are asked in the town, but as you grow, your consciousness also grows, as you go out, you go to the state and you go out of the state and you go out of the country and you go out of the continent and you go out of the planet, you start realizing that you belong to the entire earth, not simply just one house. The day that we all realize in spirituality, in science, that we all belong to one space… So, all of us are universal brotherhood, peace and harmony can descend, when humanity realizes this truth. That's why spiritual practices are necessary.
So, that is what even Bhagavad Gita is talking, “Nayanam Shastram Chindanti”; no weapon can destroy, no water can soak, no fire can burn - this is the Ultimate Truth. So, this can be realized only with mind going introvert, means it can go introvert when it gives up all its imaginations. Before that it can never realize or make out - by thinking it will always make it limited.
Some time ago, if you all remember, the God Particle came; that also is limited. Recently that person, Higgs [Higgs-boson], he passed away, so there was an article about what he discovered. That is all wonderful, nice, but that is limited. That can be compared to the concepts of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva - God particle, which gives mass to the matter, means an existence value it gives. So, here the existence value, even in your mind also, one important thing I will tell, you imagine, and a thought appears, or a picture appears in your mind. The more you become obsessed with that thought and that picture, your mind is giving mass to that imagined object within your mind. So, thus that imagined picture starts becoming more and more solid in its existence. Then one time you may even forget that you had imagined, and you will start considering that as a reality. So, thus when we were with the higher consciousness, when we imagined about this universe, now we have forgotten because we have come a long way, we are involved with our own imaginations. We don't even remember what we are, how can we remember? So we are unable to handle this world and we are bewildered. We don't know what to do. We talk of destiny, we talk of our lives, we talk of gaining and losing, all these things. So, for this only, to realize, that's what meditation has been taught. Meditation is simply you get rid of all the imagined stuff - you clean the garbage, then the reality is visible. It is there, the consciousness of existence. So, that is the beautiful science of spirituality here.
Question: Thank You, Babaji. So, when Babaji talks about the consciousness expanding, like we think that we belong to this small place, and then we belong to a bigger place… is it the identity that we're giving up of ourselves, we're giving up any identity whatsoever of who we are?
Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, slowly we leave back our small identity as we go on gaining our larger identity. When we belong to the whole country, you would like to be addressed as the name of your country. So, one day when you go to another planet you would like to be addressed as from planet earth, but a realized soul, a yogi will always identify himself with the space, the all-pervadedness, that's why he is composed, at peace; peace has been achieved - he has realized the truth. He realizes the peace and harmony. Unconditionally he can love everyone; he does not judge anyone as good or bad.
Question: So, Babaji even though a normal person would see different bodies and separate bodies and think, “O, this person's consciousness is different from mine”, or “This person is different”, but is it really the fact that the same consciousness is behind everything, - we just don't realize that?
Babaji Maharaj: You see, what we need to understand here is - all of you pay attention - consciousness is the same. Just like the TV screen every household has is the same, but in different households people might be playing different channels; according to that the different pictures appear. So, the same consciousness in everybody, in collusion with the brain, recognizes itself as a different personality and place, such thoughts and visions in the mind. So, thus, it loses its oneness and gets to see the individuality, differences.
The consciousness is the screen. On the screen, overlapping the screen, the thoughts and visions make you preoccupied to see them. This is what I have said. When you enter a room or a hall also, you seldom notice the space. Space is the screen; that is the consciousness. But our attention goes to the wall, pillar, fans, people sitting, all this matter our attention goes. You go and stand outside in the night, your attention will go to the stars, the astronomical beautiful celestial bodies, but not the space.
So, this is what has happened, that is why the differences appear, though it is the same thing. For this, ancient teachers like Vashista have given the example of earthen pitchers, earthen pots. You keep several earthen pots, ten, fifteen, twenty; in all the earthen pots it is the same space. But as long as the earthen part is there, the space appears to be different in one and different in another, small-small pieces. But once you make it disappear or destroy, when it is gone, the earthen pitchers, only one single space exists.
So, that is how this consciousness, due to the brain's reflections and the mind forgetting about itself - it has become mind with thoughts and visions, it has become preoccupied - has forgotten the oneness of the individuality, but now different individualities appear. Your thinking might be different, my thinking might be different. That's what people will start understanding. One might be thinking different things, another might be different thinking. Different channels are being played in different homes.
Question: So, everything is relative then, Babaji, from what we see. Everything depends on something else and we can't think of the space because the space itself is not relative to anything, I suppose?
Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, that is another important thing. Like the theory of relativity - we can understand, measure, recognize only when there is a relative existence there. That's why it is impossible to explain what the space is, to define to the naked eyes, because there is no relative existence. The mind is the only clue and the relative existence, but for the mind to become pure consciousness, space-like, you have to meditate. Until then you cannot make out that also as a relative existence.
You need a relative existence; that is why to give a clue only for the first question I took up the mind, that nobody has seen the mind as it is in the naked eyes. Everybody knows only the thoughts and visions that are in the mind. Other than that, nobody knows what it is. When thoughts and visions go… many people may even wonder whether it is possible to get rid of the thoughts and visions that is in the mind. Many people ask us this question, “Can we stop the mind? I don't think it is possible.” But it is possible. We could achieve that one. Our Guru, our Master, He guided us, He spoke about this. That's how we learnt this amazing science and we practiced. Once we understand the technique of meditation, what we are supposed to do and what we are supposed to achieve then things become smooth and easy. Otherwise, people can be stuck with the colors and visions and thoughts and all these things year after year, after year, forty years, fifty years, hundred years you will be just seeing only the visions and you will never realize what the truth is.
So that's why it's important to understand the technique of meditation, why the silent meditation is recommended, why it is recommended that you just watch in between eyebrows - just watch, don't think. Once you give up thinking or analyzing judgments then your mind recedes and becomes quiet, then it regains the form of Pure Consciousness. Then you will realize that Pure Consciousness is none other than your real Self. Because you were imagining. When you started imagining and you forgot to stop that imagination, you got so carried away. You started thinking of everything that you imagined as a reality, and in the process you forgot about yourself also of what you are. You identified yourself wrongly with something else. The body is an amazing, wonderful thing for us to live in this world. See, without this body I couldn't have been answering your questions and communicating with you all in your existence as the physical bodies. So, matter needs matter to communicate. The same space, through this body with the help of the brain is able to communicate. Thus, this is a wonder, wonder of the universe, wonder of the creation, how the brain has come.
Question: But Babaji Himself is now one with that space, merged with the space, but why is it that we see Babaji in this physical form, we imagine Babaji to be a separate thing but in fact it's the all-pervading space?
Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, you see, today all of you try to think one fact. When you think that Babaji is realized, you all don't know what that realization means for me, what is it that I have achieved; nobody can know it, no other person. Only through your faith and belief, that you have that faith that Babaji is Self-realized. Until you yourself do not realize, you will never understand what here has been achieved. So only a physical figure will be appearing in front of you - that you recognize as a Babaji, as your Guru, as your father, as your mother, whatever you want to recognize. So, that is it. But actually, the inner realization and the quietness, that wonder that amazing…
Vashista telling Rama, He says, “It is a hair-raising experience, hey Rama. The day that you experience nirvikalpa samadhi, if I talk then you will understand or you will understand on your own.” Such is the wonder. We all recognize Buddha, but how many know what Buddha had achieved? Just for peace and non-violence people want to use His name as Buddha. All yogis achieved peace and they all wanted peace, not that they taught something else. But they all worked, many people worked in the world; many people kept quiet. Like Rama, Krishna, they all worked in this world, they played their roles, and some people just remained quiet under a tree, so that is all it is. But Self-realization, the day that you are able to cleanse your mind, make it quiet, then when your attention goes to the source of consciousness of your existence, that is the amazing and that gives Supreme Peace, the enjoyment is there, and you wouldn't like to come out of that one.
Question: Slowly Babaji, as we practice this sadhana, meditation, are we able to let go of the attachments to be material objects? Does that happen naturally?
Babaji Maharaj: Slowly and naturally, without affecting your worldly life - I want to clarify so that people should not misunderstand. You can be a normal person, you can love, and you can do your duties, responsibilities, everything, but in the inside consciousness, you will remain unaffected. Let me use this word instead of unattached, let me use that. You will simply remain unaffected, at peace. You will play your role. Like we also are playing. Because I am in the society through this body, I am looking after my Guru's Ashram. Everything, I had to get involved; in a conflict I had to get involved. But yet we don't have any personal hatred, enmity about anyone, but we defended our institution so that common people can come and sit peacefully and meditate here. This is a public utility place, not my property. I could have given away and gone and sat under a tree; that would have been more peaceful for me, but I couldn't do that one. This is my Guru's institution. I needed to defend and create peace. That has been what we had been working for ten years, fifteen years - to have the peace in front so that common people can come and sit peacefully. They can meditate, they can quieten their mind, they can practice concentration of their mind through music, through devotional songs, all these things we try to do this one. So, like that any human being can achieve that quietness and then yet he can live a normal life, but yet he will remain unaffected. That is the beauty.
Question: Thank You so much, Babaji. Can space be equated to unconditional spiritual love?
Babaji Maharaj: Once, when you realize, then you will feel the Divinity is always with you. For that you have to get rid of all your imaginations. Until the imaginations are there in your mind, they will be a stumbling block, often creating such illusion in you. Even if you read in theory, even if I tell you, the next moment you are likely to forget about it, unless you are practiced to it, used to it; that’s necessary. I just talk how to bake a bread and if you don't practice baking it every day, you are likely to forget after two days and you will start thinking a bread cannot be baked. So, like that here also, every day you have to meditate and then you will understand what I am talking. You will understand that the Divine is with you always.
Question: Is the experience of space satchitananda?
Babaji Maharaj: Yes, definitely. When you clear all your thoughts and visions in the mind, you will experience that also. That is what is peace, Supreme Peace, enjoyable peace. A hair raising experience of the quietness and serenity you experience.
Question: Will artificial intelligence become an extension of our consciousness?
Babaji Maharaj: No. Artificial intelligence will be using the brain and such things only. Like for example, I will just… I am a common man; I am not technical or a scientist or anything. When newly we all saw computers when it came, means when we did not know what computer means, it appeared to be a great miracle as if God had incarnated. People started talking like that – “A wonder this computer, you cannot understand this intelligence that it is predicting”, then we slowly realized as we started using, finally, we, through our mind need to operate this. We need to use our consciousness to operate - even this artificial intelligence, it may have been tapped much more deeper resources of the nature, definitely, maybe higher than what we are using. Like people telling a much more larger, higher than the Google, they are talking - so many things we get to hear. But finally, we humans have to use it. When we use it, we have to use it for the right purpose, benefit of the world, benefit of everybody. Otherwise, it can create havoc. It can be dangerous and disastrous. If we don't have that control; that control is consciousness.
Question: Pranaams Babaji. So, we're all sharing the same consciousness and energy, but our individual minds and thoughts and imaginations, those are contained within the individual's experience. Those aren't shared by everyone. Is that right?
Babaji Maharaj: Because of the brain's reflection, it all appears to be different individuals and the thoughts are generated only in that individuality. Once it is the consciousness, oneness, there are no thoughts at all for anybody. They are all one. The space is one. So that may appear bewildering for a while until you don't experience that quietness in your own mind. So that is why you practice meditation and achieve that peace within you, then you will understand this secret, what I have been talking to you all.
Same Questioner: And as it expands, as You mentioned from your street to your town, your country to the earth, as that individual's sense of self expands, does the consciousness and energy, is there more of a sharing of that or is it still just the individual mind until the Self-realization?
Babaji Maharaj: No, by consciousness expanding means we start going back to our origin, towards our origin. If not totally to the origin, at least we get elevated, better elevated in our consciousness. Finally, when you meditate only you can go back to the highest consciousness of your origin. That is what is the Self. That is how it will happen.
Same Questioner: So, until then, it's still just the individual container of thoughts and imaginations and visions.
Babaji Maharaj: Yeah, it is still there. It is still like the playing of the snake and ladder. For a while on the ladder, you go up. You need to be careful. Once you come across the snake, you will come down again. You will forget about this. You have to practice, practice meditation, practice, quietening your mind. Then once for all when you achieve, always you will be aware of that one; that will not be slipped ever again.
Same Questioner: Thank You, Babaji.
Question: Pranaams, Babaji, I just had a question. I know that mind is a combination of consciousness and energy. Is another word for that energy kundalini? What is that?
Babaji Maharaj: Kundalini also is another portion of the mind only, which has gone into the body. Kundalini, they used that terminology, like the coiled energy. Within the body, it's like a round coil; the energy has spread all over, the consciousness and energy, that which has given you yourself as the physical body. So, when you practice meditation, that kundalini also rises, and they become one mass and then goes towards samadhi. That's what happens. It is the same.
Same Questioner: Thanks, Babaji.
Question: Pranaams, Babaji. Earlier You mentioned the Buddha, and I know that You often, and Swamiji even often spoke of the Buddha and His teachings. I was talking with a friend earlier this week, and we were trying to think about the, I guess not really the difference, but I've heard that what separates Vedic philosophy and Buddha Dharma is atman versus anatman, Self versus no Self. And that the fundamental nature of reality within the Vedic teachings that are propounded by You is the fundamental fullness, I guess, of Brahman, of the Self as our source. But as I've studied Buddhism a little bit, I seem to keep getting the answer that the fundamental existence of reality is emptiness and that there is no source. So, why do we consider the Buddha as a Self-realized being, if He didn't really teach about the Self, or did that come later as Buddhism separated in to different paths?
Babaji Maharaj: Now, all of you pay attention; it is very important. In our ancient philosophy also, Vashista talking in Yoga Vashista, in His advice of yoga to Sri Rama talks about the Ultimate Truth; “It is there, and it is not there. Both are equally true.” As I have explained, the room is void with space or is filled with space, either way, but in silence only is the real message. Very often Buddha used to maintain silence. And yogis always have maintained silence. We all have emphasized. None of us, nobody can explain what it is actually, because we have to tell in relativity either of the two. So, very often, those who are immature people, they take one of them and try to belittle the other and go on arguing. Both are not there at all actually. Just you can take any one philosophy. Like for example, the Atman philosophy. Because when you begin with, you talk to human beings; if you tell that “You don't exist at all”, they will be bewildered. One of the basic reasons for human fear is insecurity. They need to be assured, “Securely you exist, even after the body dies, you are going to exist. This is very important.” Then only they would like to take up and go further. They will be there. In duality only, this existence is experienced. Once you finally merge, it is neither existence nor non-existence, actually.
Simply any terminology that is used, it will appear to you. Like for example, at one place, somebody asked Buddha, “Does God exist?” He kept quiet. Buddha kept quiet. He didn't answer anything. So, then that devotee said, “Does it mean that God does not exist?” He said, "When did I say so? Buddha said these words. “I didn't tell anything and why are you imagining your own ideas? Try to become silent.” That is why as a Guru, as a Master we also try to teach the meditation technique. First step, you appear for the examination of kindergarten. Then you will come to next step. In that class, I will teach you further. Then when you come to primary, high school, college, then I will go on teaching the same things further. But first day itself if I try to teach this, the child will be bewildered, it won't be able to understand what it is. So, when we are teaching these things, it is not conclusive and complete. That's why my Guru said, “You meditate and know the truth to yourself.”
Same Questioner: Yes. When we were discussing it - my friend is another student and follower of Yours - and he quoted You and used that same example of the room is void with space or the room is full with space. That's the same thing he said to me. Thank You, Baba. I appreciate You clearing that up.
Question: Namaste, Babaji. So, the question I have is, is light and space one and the same? If not, what is the correlation?
Babaji Maharaj: The light is symbolically compared to knowledge and brightness only. Space is beyond the light, actually. They are not one and same. Light is an appearance in the space. The space is beyond the light.
Same Questioner: So, because we comprehend space with the objects in the universe, and without light, where is the space and where is the object?
Babaji Maharaj: Both are there actually. Because we are watching through this physical body which is a part of the matter, this matter needs another matter's help to see something; that is when we need light. These naked eyes need light to see things. Otherwise, darkness will be visible. But when you become space itself, there is neither darkness nor light. It is not experienced at all, because there is no matter at all, there is nothing that you have to see. You experience the existence.
Same Questioner: So, when you were in the conscious state, there is no universe?
Babaji Maharaj: Yes, when you experience that samadhi, you go beyond that one. That's why only when you experience, you will get the real clue. You will be able to understand exactly what the infinity means.
Same Questioner: So, an experienced Master, in His experienced state would prefer to be silent mostly, but if He's communicating to His devotees or the people, that means He's coming back to the conscious level of the universe?
Babaji Maharaj: Yes, because I have to use some relative existence only to communicate; without that it is impossible. No definition can be given at all. So, that means when we give a definition, we give it as a clue so that you also practice and achieve that truth finally; to inspire you, to give a clue what you are supposed to achieve, what you can experience eventually. So, based on that only we try to give an answer. As it is Ultimate Truth is impossible; nobody can answer it. It is the silence…
Same Questioner: So, in the practice of meditation, then should we also let go of the thoughts pertaining to anything of creation?
Babaji Maharaj: Exactly, anything. That is why “Just watch” has been taught repeatedly. When thoughts and visions appear, mind has a tendency to analyze and make a judgment about those thoughts and this universe, etc. That must not be done. If you just watch, you will realize, mind is trying to watch itself. When it becomes quiet, it regains that form of pure consciousness. That's what you have to achieve.
Same Questioner: So, how long will it take Babaji? So, we are trying to do that, but I know still that mind seems to be silent, but there's a lot more.
Babaji Maharaj: You see, you all have to understand one thing, the old saying, "Horse can be taken to the river, but it is for the horse to drink the water.” A Guru can be a torch bearer, who can inspire repeatedly, keep telling “You can do it. Come, this is how you have to do it.” How long it takes - it depends on you. How much you have understood the technique, how much you are able to achieve the quietness of your own mind. So, however, have a positive attitude always that you can do it, you can achieve it, in due course of time it will happen. Without watching [the time], just go on doing meditation every day. Like, if you stand at the foothills of the Himalayas, if you see on top, it can be terrifying. “How will I go on top?” But one by one steps you take, one day you can be on top of it. So, like that, you keep going, one day you can achieve.
Same Questioner: One last question, Babaji. So, when you are in that state, will you know yourself that it is that, or do we still need the Guru to tell us that it was that only what you were?
Babaji Maharaj: No, when you go to that state, it will be revealed. You will know it.
Question: Pranaams, Babaji. Babaji explained that this universe is impermanent and everything is destroyed, because it's the creativity - the space and consciousness always exists, but the creation through the imagination of this universe ends. So, when this body is also in imagination, why doesn't our consciousness, all the creativity of the mind, the thoughts destroy with the end of the body?
Babaji Maharaj: Simply with the end of the body it will not be destroyed, because when the body ends, that means the brain stops functioning, but the mind will continue functioning. It won't become quiet with the end of the body - then they wouldn't have any problem at all. You wouldn’t have been born as Kriti at all. If you had not been born as Kriti, there would be no problem for you. You are born already, so there is some problem. So, that's what you had to get rid of. The mind carries. It simply gets detached from the brain, but the mind is carrying its habits, acquired habits of the mind, the thoughts and visions - it cannot have a decodified thought or a vision, but the symptoms will be there. That is what is carried as tendencies, attitude. Based on that, only a next incarnation, next birth happens. You experience a next world. You forget the previous life, just like you'd have forgotten the previous life now, you don't remember. But because of the brain, in this life you will remember, your parents, your relatives, siblings, everything you will remember. So, that is how it happens. So, when the body is available, there is one opportunity that you can get rid of all thoughts and visions in the mind, you can cleanse the mind. Then, that liberation happens, you don't have to be reborn; you merge with the Ultimate, Parabrahman, once for all, it is possible.
Same Questioner: Thank You, Babaji.
Question: Namaste, Babaji. The matter is in the space. The matter is hardly 1% of space. Why are we struck with this matter? Is it because we are made up of it?
Babaji Maharaj: The body also is made up from this, it is also matter. So, we have forgotten our real Self. We are considering this body as ourselves. Thus, we are stuck with this matter. We consider ourselves as a part of the matter. So, every matter becomes so important. And we have lost understanding of the importance of space. People never think twice. Like I tell, you enter the hall, you will not consider space as important. How important the space; without space, nothing could have existed at all.
So, we need to be grateful to space first as we are grateful to the earth, because on the earth, which sustains our life - since ancient times, all sages, they tried to be thankful to all these; sun, moon, water, agni [fire], everything, whatever is useful, sustains our life - the same way we need to be grateful to space. That is what is
kausalya supraja rāma pūrvāsandhyā pravartatē
uttistha naraśārdūla kartavyam daivamāhnikam.
“To remember that Ultimate Truth is your duty O Rama. It is early morning hours; the evening is over. Now, get up, it is time, and try to remember that Ultimate Truth.” That is Vishwamitra advising Sri Rama. So, that is what ancient sages, all great scientists, they reminded us – “You need to remember and be grateful to that Divinity ultimately.” As we are going to be grateful to so many things that are useful for us - water is useful, earth is useful, oxygen is useful, everything sustains our physical life. So, we try to be grateful to all those in our pujas, everything. So, that is why we are stuck because we have forgotten ourselves.
Same Questioner: One more question, Babaji. Like with meditation, we can clear the memories, or maybe in the samadhi state we can clear the memories. So, initially, whatever we are doing, in a software language is it like we are just running a virus software?
Babaji Maharaj: Yes. We clear that virus.
Question: Pranaam Babaji. Babaji, my question is how - we mentioned about matter earlier – how matter would help us to get to our Supreme Consciousness because from younger ages we are always encouraged to pray, and we have an idol and we meditate on the idol. But here, we seem to look at the idol as a point of concentration. Would that be a right way to say that way?
Babaji Maharaj: You see, matter is helpful means your physical body is also a matter. So you needed another matter to recognize the Ultimate Truth - the idol is there. You pour all your faith, your emotions, considering that as a great symbol of the Ultimate Truth and worship that one, consider it as the reality. So, as your mind becomes more clear and clear, more obsessed with that, slowly you will gain ability to see the same Divinity everywhere, will be possible. So, thus eventually you will realize the Ultimate Truth. Then one day you will realize this space is nothing but that Divinity because if Divinity has to be all pervaded, the space has to be the Divine. It cannot be something else. Like that you will realize one day, space. So, thus the matter is helpful. For now, continue worshiping the idol also; it will be helpful.
Same Questioner: OK. Thank You, Babaji. Pranaam.
Question: Pranaam Babaji. Babaji, there are three things. One is the brain and then the mind and then the Parabrahma, which is Ultimate, which is not expanding which You just mentioned, which is completely silent. So, we know the structure of the brain; we studied it, cortex, limbic and spinal and all that, and we know how it operates. Now, my question is, what is the structure of the mind? Because nobody has seen the mind. So, what is the structure of the mind? How that mind operates? Like, some people say it is buddhi, ahamkaara, manas and chitta. So, how is it different from Parabrahma? Can You just explain the structure of the mind in relation to understand…
Babaji Maharaj: Now, pay attention. In a simple language, the brain helps you to be in touch with this universe with the matter. It receives a message and it passes on the order. In that process, it reflects. Mind gets to see that. Watching that, the mind catches and registers in itself as if that thing is happening in itself. Thus, the mind loses its consciousness of what it is actually, that it is one with the Parabrahma. It forgets, then it becomes mind. Then, it imagines within itself also, and it gets preoccupied and gets carried away with its own imaginations. So, that is the structure of the mind, basically, a little bit clue. But the mind is made up of consciousness and energy - a droplet of the Parabrahman mind is. But you have to regain that by practicing meditation, get rid of the imaginations that are in the mind. So, thus, you can go back to Parabrahman eventually. Then, you can use the brain when your body is there. Otherwise, now brain is using you actually; you are becoming a victim of the brain. Whatever the brain reflects, you take it in good faith, and you start thinking that as the truth.
Same Questioner: Okay. So, now You mentioned the brain is using the mind, so how can I use the mind to use the brain? And what is it that I have ahamkaara, manas and chitta; how can I reach the chitta?
Babaji Maharaj: Forget this buddhi, ahamkaara, and chitta terminologies. Just meditate, concentrate your mind and sight and watch in between eyebrows. Because if you keep reading buddhi, chitta, ahamkaara, you will be confused. It is just there, and you are unable to understand. That's why, as a Guru, I will command that you forget these three terminologies. Ahamkaara, buddhi and chitta, all the three finish. You just watch in between eyebrows. When all the thoughts all get cleared, you just learn to watch and do not think or analyze, then what remains is the consciousness of existence. Then you would have transcended buddhi, chitta, ahamkaara, everything and gone to the Reality. Do that one first.
Question: Pranaam Babaji. So, my question is - Parabrahman, it is not having any object, I mean you can't express that as an object, it is in space, it is not having any form. So, if that is the case, then it is everywhere, like that it is mentioned. So, then, why we are concentrating in between the eyebrows to know the Parabrahman?
Babaji Maharaj: See, now, because mind has lost its consciousness of what it is of the Parabrahman. It has become preoccupied with imaginations. That is why it needs to be made single pointed. It is expanding and scattering with imaginations. So, all over it is forgetting about its real Self. That's why it is taught here [Babaji points to the middle of the eyebrows]. If you practice the single pointedness, then it goes introvert, merging with the Self, realizing the Parabrahman. Until it is expanding with imaginations, it will not realize what the truth is. So, that is the reason practicing single pointedness is taught. Hope you've got what I am saying.
Question: Thank You, Babaji. Ram, Ram. Baba, what is the, the Indian term for silence? Does it carry more implication and shades of meaning than the western term, silence? And could you...
Babaji Maharaj: Mouna. Mouna is the word used, in silence. Mouna means totally you are quiet. Mentally you are quiet. Mouna.
Same Questioner: Does mouna imply anything more than just silence?
Babaji Maharaj: When you do not imagine anything, when you are able to remain in yourself, that's what is the Self-realization, that's what it implies. Mouna. So, achieve mouna of the mind so that the secret is revealed that you just remain in yourself.
Same Questioner: And Babaji, the term for space that is used, it's akaash?
Babaji Maharaj: Akaash, avakaash is the void place. Akaash.
Same Questioner: And does that have any more shade of meaning than just space?
Babaji Maharaj: It is just a void place where other imaginations can occur. That's why it is akaasha. But you overcome the effect of akaasha, then the Parabrahman, where there is no chance of any imagination coming into existence.
Same Questioner: Thank You, Babaji.
End of Questions and Answers
Babaji Maharaj now concludes the session
So wonderful, some very beautiful questions came. Thank you Simon for taking up this beautiful topic.
End of Session
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