In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Shri Babaji
In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Shri Babaji
Ashtavakra Samhita Chapter 1, verses 8-13 | In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Babaji, No.193
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Baba answers questions and comments on chapter 1 verses 8 thru 13 of the Ashtravakra Gita, followed by general questions on spirituality, ego, meditation, Self Realization and Supreme Peace.
0:00 Intro
0:06 Agastya introduces the Ashtavakra Gita.
1:34 Ego falsely imagines it is the doer.
5:20 Mind is infinite, it is your Self. Faith is necessary. Meditate to focus on the Self, your attention is preoccupied with imaginations.
7:56 When your consciousness is not into any type of imagination, know that as the truth of existence.
10:41 Mind gives only what it imagines, it can never give the Truth.
14:09 Time and space are imaginations; meditation is to stop imagining. Just watch and thoughts will disappear.
16:13 Due to imagination only, a false thing appears to be true.
17:17 Baba recommendation, the need for meditation.
18:08 Misunderstanding what the Self is, what the mind is.
20:54 Baba explains ego in detail.
23:25 What is true spirituality. The need for direct experience of the Self. Importance of having the right teacher.
26:33 Siddhis, celestial worlds, and super powers cannot give Self Realization. To know the Self is the greatest miracle, with it comes supreme peace.
31:24 Meditate to quiet the mind, overcome the ego, and attain liberation. Story of Astravakra commanding King Janaka to "Stop" mentally.
36:04 In addition to meditation, the practice of acceptance (karma yoga) can contribute to Self-Realization. Baba explains how mental attitude aids in spiritual growth.
40:48 Purpose can be more important than the act of doing.
43:37 How can a person be devoted to the path, perform karma yoga, and serve selflessly, without the quality of love? Devotion, service and acceptance.
47:05 The importance of learning from the knowers of Truth. True peace is within you only. Purushartha - individual effort is needed.
51:30 How can I wake up every morning inspired to live a spiritual life?
53:08 Space doesn't need anything for its existence, it is holding the entire universe.
55:38 How do we turn our attention from the world to our Self?
57:41 While keenly observing in meditation, if there are no thoughts can we know that as the Self?
58:31 Seeing the Self but again slipping back into thinking.
59:06 Why is our mind is working against us, rather than for us?
1:00:36 Does food play an important role in controlling the mind?
1:01:47 How to sustain thought free focus during meditation.
1:04:04 Celestial appearances are a distraction to meditation and a much higher reality.
1:05:59 Advice to someone who meditates a lot and does not need much sleep.
1:07:00 Is not reacting mentally or physically to external stimulation the same as withdrawing the senses, and quieting the mind?
1:07:57 When focused between the eyebrows, how do you get into samadhi? How to transcend body consciousness?
1:09:19 By theory alone you cannot know with certainty what is positive or negative behavior. Meditate to purify the mind and negativity will disappear.
1:11:28 Does Absolute Consciousness have the power to think of and manifest beautiful or ugly things?
1:14:43 Is consciousness or mind evolving?
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Ashtavakra Samhita Chapter 1, verses 8-13 | In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Babaji, No.193
Recorded on 18 August 2024
Introduction from Facilitator:
Just to clarify, we're going through the Ashtavakra Gita, which is an ancient Advaita Vedanta text that Baba has done a commentary on, and it contains all the knowledge of the oneness of everything. It's a beautiful scripture. Probably the first 45 minutes or so, we'll go through, and Baba is going to comment on that, then there will be a little time at the end to ask questions, your personal questions about the teachings and things like that. It doesn't have to be about Ashtavakra, but about spirituality in general. Okay, Baba, last time we left off, I think, at Verse eight.
Question:
Verse eight chapter one. I'll read the verse, if that's okay, I'll read and then when You have a comment You'd like to make, just look like You want to comment and I'll stop. Okay,
Shri Babaji:
Yeah. First you have to read which verse and what is the sentence. Based on that only I can comment or elaborate anything further,
Question:
Okay, all right. You ready? Okay.
Verse eight says, "You've been bitten by the great, black, poisonous serpent of egoism, ‘I am the doer’. Drink instead the nectar of faith, ‘I am not the doer’, and be happy". I'd like You to comment. The demon here is, ‘I am the doer’, the poisonous snake. Then you comment on the nectar of faith, that ‘I am not the doer’.
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, I can do that. In the present day, if we just take up the mind. If you try to understand the mind, how infinite it is. You cannot touch physically by the mind any matter at all, in any way, yet in your mental imagination you experience that touch, or that thing happening, a reverberation. Like when you are watching a movie, you are just watching through the sensory organs, the eyes. Through the eyes the mind is watching. I call it, "You are watching", because mind is definitely nothing but you. When you practice meditation, you will understand this. Whereas you are in no way connected to the movie, yet you experience it just by an imagination, which is an illusion in turn. It would appear as if you are there in the movie. It would appear as if good things are happening, bad things are happening, making you excited, making you agonize, making you painful, all these things.
In the same way, in this world, if you keenly observe the mind, mind cannot touch anything except in imagination. It has to imagine and enjoy. It (mind as consciousness) doesn't really enjoy anything of the world, and it doesn't do anything in this world. It doesn't do anything to the matter. The world is going on but the mind imagines as if it is the doer, as if it thought and such a thing is happening. Through physical effort only, you might be able to do a little bit. For this (physical action to occur) inducing through the mind may be necessary, definitely, but mind itself does not do anything. That is what Ashtavakra is talking here. It is an ego to consider that you are doing. Here “you” means, as the spirit form, as the mind, as the consciousness of existence, not as the physical body. When the body does (acts) you think that you are doing, that amounts to egoism, because it is not helpful, and you are putting yourself into the cycle of good and bad, right and wrong, happiness and unhappiness, unnecessarily. This is what Ashtavakra means when talking that you are getting involved into the egoism.
Now, until you properly meditate and experience, you need to have faith that you are not the doer. This may be very difficult. It may not be as easy as we talk, but you need to have faith. First try to see, you cannot locate your mind. You yourself cannot touch your mind, and you cannot see with the naked eyes your own mind. Mind is yourself. I have told, mind is infinite, it is the combination of consciousness and energy, both are invisible to the naked eyes. That is why, who is the doer you will know in deep samadhi state. Mechanical things are happening. The one who induces through the mind… like when you are induced by the mind, mind needs to be aware that it is not doing anything. That is how the ultimate truth, though it is for sake of divine play, the entire universe is going on due to the Divinity, I say, but not according to the wishes of the Divinity. The Divine has no such wishes. This will be very difficult to understand. Even when I'm trying to explain, lots of doubts will arise. To understand you have to regularly meditate, and then your focus needs to come back to your real Self, your mind, which is infinite in nature. Then only will you understand. You will wonder for the first time, you are not doing anything, you are not touching anything, you are not even eating, yet you are experiencing everything as if you are eating, as if you are doing, all these are happening. You are catching the reflections of the brain which are simply illusions and registering them in yourself. These are the points for now, but only when you practice regular meditation will you be able to experience, because just now your attention is on the imaginations.
When you imagine you are the doer, that appears so solid. When you imagine something, you always believe whatever you imagine as the right thing. I have told a hundred times, in the Yoga Vasistha, Vasistha tells, "A friend might appear as a foe, a foe might appear as a friend", whereas both may be incorrect, because you are simply imagining. You don't know what the truth is. That's why Adi Shankara tells, "When you come face to face and when your consciousness is not into any type of imagination, know that experience as the truth of existence". I will repeat for your sake what Adi Shankara says in the Vivekachoodamani, "When you come face to face in your consciousness, and when that consciousness is not into any type of imagination…" - that means, when the mind is totally silent – “what you experience is the only Truth”. That is the consciousness of existence. I keep telling, "Amongst millions of thoughts, there is one consciousness of existence, which is a truth, which is a reality, which is not an imagination". That consciousness of existence is not there because of your imagination, but it is a truth. The rest are all there because of your imagination. This experience comes when you meditate, that is the ‘just watch’ instruction. When you just watch and do not think or analyze about anything, then slowly, all the thoughts and visions disappear. Then finally, one day, you achieve total silence of the mind. Many people refuse to believe the mind can be silenced. It can happen. All thoughts can be vanished, because they are there simply because of imaginations. When that happens, at that time you will experience the consciousness of existence, and you cannot remove that, you cannot make that disappear. That is how the sages concluded the Self as eternal existence. These are some of the points for now I am telling you, but one day, I hope you will practice meditation and you will realize these facts.
Question:
So, Baba, imagination is anything in the mind, any thoughts, any concepts. Anything that appears in consciousness is imagination, and is created by the mind?
Shri Babaji:
Yes, that's why I have told, mind can never give the truth of existence, because it gives only what it imagines. So, about this universe also, whatever your mind imagines, that appears to be the truth. For example, take space. First time, whenever you would have heard, “The space in between two walls is a void place, in between two walls is known as space. Any void place is known as space”, something like that you would have heard and that is sitting (in your mind). Now, you don't know anything else about space. You know only that space is a wide place, that is all. There can be so much more. When you practice Samadhi, you experience this as the supreme consciousness of existence. The only clue just now, your mind also is space actually, because it is not visible to the naked eyes; it is simply a combination of consciousness and energy. Because I have experienced that truth, that is why I am able to tell. It is neither good nor bad, it is neither happiness nor unhappiness. It is beyond all these things. Anything, good or bad; dualities are only imaginations that occur within the consciousness. If that imagination is removed, it is beyond. You are unable to see that through the naked eyes, but it is there, you can experience.
Just now, everybody knows that there is a mind. That knowing is only based on the thoughts and visions that are in the mind. Nobody knows what the mind itself is. That's why Ramana Maharishi said, “Mind is a bundle of thoughts”. In one way that is true. That is what we call mind. When these thoughts are all cleared it is no more mind, it would have regained the pure form of consciousness. Next terminology ‘consciousness’ is the nearest terminology we can use to give you a clue of what it is. Other than this, you see, no location, nobody can show you “This is the mind, this is the color, this is the location”, where it is, nothing, no laboratory, no telescope, no gelescope, nothing can show it. Simply in science also when they cannot see anything, they have called it ‘ether’ or some such thing. But that also, nobody knows. Few years ago, everybody got excited about God particle, but now everybody has forgotten again. Nobody knows what it is. It is all gone. Every now and then, something keeps coming and then goes away, because it is all imaginations. The truth is beyond imagination.
Question:
Baba, to understand what Ashtavakra is saying in this Advaita-Vedanta text, and what You're saying, I find it helpful to try to view it from the standpoint of the Self as consciousness, which is immutable, infinite, unbounded, eternal, rather than try to view it from the standpoint of being a person with individuality. Is that helpful?
Shri Babaji:
It can be, because always terminologies have been used by previous great masters also to give a clue based on the culture or the language that is prevailing. In our ancient scriptures, words like Para Brahman, Brahman, Atman, these terminologies have been used to give a certain meaning. Para Brahman; it is beyond all imaginations. Like Einstein said, to reach that you have to cross the barrier of time and space. That's what Yoga Vasistha also teaches; time and space as imaginations - like that, if you understand everything is there, a thought is there in your mind because of your imagination. If you stop imagining, that's what is meant by ‘just watch’ in meditation. If you just watch then thoughts will disappear, you will see. Thoughts are there because you are still imagining. You are analyzing. You are trying to make a judgment. Like a person who is holding the pillar and shouting, "The pillar is not leaving me". The pillar is not leaving because you are holding the pillar. Pillar has nothing to do.
Question:
Baba, the next (Verse 9) "With the fire of certainty, I am One, Pure Consciousness. Burn away the forest of ignorance, discarding all sorrows, be happy." (Verse 10) "You are actually that Pure Consciousness, Supreme Peace upon which this universe falsely appears to be superimposed, like the rope appears to be a snake through false superimposed imagination."
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, due to imagination only, a false thing appears to be true. Ancient teachers have used the analogy of a rope appearing to be a snake in the darkness, when you see suddenly, for a moment, you might get panicked, whether it is a snake which will bite you.
I'm not trying to lecture anyone unnecessarily. I am trying to convey based on my experiences in tapas. If you also follow the method and do it, all of you participants will definitely experience and I stand by what I am talking. At least I am sure I am not talking nonsense or giving simply lectures to you all. Simply, we are discussing so that some clue might come to your mind and you might be able to understand, but finally, you will understand only when you practice meditation. I have practiced it. I am recommending that you all also practice, but it's your choice if you don't want to practice.
So that's what as we were discussing, Agastya, what you spoke to me, people misunderstanding the things to be something else, other than what the truth is. About the Self also, so much misunderstanding is there, that we are the body. And even about the mind also; people talk about what ‘my mind’ wants to do, but what that mind itself is, that's what nobody knows. Nobody tries to think also. Whatever is in the mind, they try to think about it. “My mind has this. My mind wants to go there.” But what is this mind itself, that eternal thing? Simply, the nearest clue is consciousness and energy. It is a combination of consciousness and energy, but whatever mind imagines, that appears to be the truth. Like in the darkness, when you see a rope, if your mind imagines a snake, only a snake would appear, because that appearance is in your mind's imagination. As long as that imagination is there, as long as you don't switch on the light and see it is a rope, not a snake, your mind will not accept it as only a rope. Even if somebody like me comes and tells you it is a rope, then you will ridicule me, also, “Don't give me a lecture, this is a snake, this is not a rope.” That happens, it's natural, as long as you yourself don't experience, don't practice.
Everybody has a choice whether they want to practice or they don't want to practice. My job is to appeal, recommend, advocate, that's what we do, but we don't try to impose. I'm not trying to tie anybody with a rope and make them listen to me. You are free not to listen to me. It is your choice. That's what every Master has told. Even Adi Shankara has told, “This is the truth, what I experienced, now you practice this method which I have recommended, and then see what the truth is to yourself. Then you see what is your opinion about this. You can have your own opinion. You don't have to blindly believe me, what I am trying to talk.” That is how the great teachers always have spoken previously, also. I would stand by it now also.
Question:
Baba, I would read from the Scripture Your commentary which is talking about mind and ego. You say by the hypnotizing magic effect of the imagination of your consciousness, which you call the mind, this imagination that you are doing everything is known as ego. The ego is symbolically compared to a black poisonous serpent bite. Giving up the ego is compared to nectar. And all imaginations of the mind, which keep you away consciously from your Real Self, are known as ego.
Shri Babaji:
Always imagining and claiming a false thing, which we are not (is ego). I am not claiming that I am a Self-realized person, there is no such ego. I just talk of my experience. If a person is just a gate watchman, and he trying to claim he is the prime minister of a country, that is ego. That type of thing is what here Ashtavakra explains to the king. Otherwise, if he was the king, Janaka wouldn't have listened to this teaching of Ashtavakra. That is why Ashtavakra wanted the emperor to come down off the throne first, so that he would not have the ego that he is a king. Then he won't listen to the teacher. You become a student, if you are interested then you listen, then you practice, then you will get the thing. That's what he tries to tell here. Otherwise, false claim is ego, that which you are not. False imagination is your ego. You think that you know everything, and you think that this body is you. With that you claim hundreds of things: “I am a big businessman; I am a royal person; I am the general; I am this; I am that”, so many things. So, all these are explained by Ashtavakra as ego. This is what the ego means. Unnecessary ego is there, which we are not. So that is what it is.
Question:
You define spirituality too. You say, giving up all these imaginations can give you awareness of your real Self and supreme peace. To give up these imaginations, whatever exercises prescribed are known as spiritual exercises, or spirituality. Dhyana meditation is one of the highest forms of spiritual exercise. So, You're saying spirituality is anything that helps reveal the Self?
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, study of the Self, which is in the spirit form. Spirit form is what we try to talk as infinite. Infinite means that which you cannot see with the naked eyes, touch through the body, hear through the body, any such thing. Because it is You, yourself. Other than you, you cannot experience yourself. (only you can experience yourself) You cannot show “This is me, that I am like this only”. You cannot demonstrate anything. You can give a clue to the student, “If you do like this, you can also experience for yourself”. So that is not a false lecture, that is recommending that if you do this, adopt this method, then you will know about the Truth. That's what all great masters have told.
But it is up to the student. If the student fails to adopt such methods, then he may simply abuse the Guru. “Ah, this is not true at all, the Guru was simply lecturing, and has nothing to do with me”. So, that is what is important, practical experience is very much necessary. The master teaches “This is the ego, this is what it is”. Then you try to experience, then you will know the truth. That's why Swamiji also always told, “Meditate and know the truth for yourself”. Even Vasistha tells Sri Rama, if I explain to you now, your consciousness will not accept or understand. When you yourself experience Nirvikalpa Samadhi, at that time, on your own you will understand, or then if I explain also, you will understand. That is the highest truth. So that's how the ego things are there. To teach this Ashtavakra needed King Janaka to become a student first. That's why a Guru-disciple relationship is recommended, so that you can have reverence. If a person doesn't have respect, reverence to the master, such a one would not try to learn at all. This is the egoism Ashtavakra is talking, basically. To give up this ego so that you can learn.
Question:
So, Baba, if the definition of spirituality is exercises or activities to discover the true Self as pure consciousness, what about all the efforts people make to know, celestial worlds, to gain siddhis, you know, the supernormal powers, things like that? Those don't necessarily result in Self-Realization. Would they not be considered spiritual practices?
Shri Babaji:
Not at all, it has nothing to do with Self-Realization. Self-Realization is the truth of existence. Whereas siddhis and celestial bodies, if at all it happens, it cannot give any Self-Realization, one would be stuck into this. Already there is an illusion, and you get involved into further illusions, and you go on and on and on. Life after life, ‘Punarapi Jananam Punarapi Maranam’ (again birth again death), will be happening, and you will never realize what the Truth is. The truth of existence. That's why I have told, the Self is the greatest wonder. To know The Self is the highest miracle, greatest miracle, when you achieve the supreme peace. That is what is definitely needed to know. This is possible when you remove all the wrong things of the mind. The mind has spoiled itself with all sorts of imaginations, first you need to overcome that. Until you rectify the fault that the mind has happened, the mind will not be able to pay attention to what the truth is – if we have to discuss about the truth also. First you have to remove that chronic disease, remove the garbage of the mind, let everything go away. When it gets cleansed, then its attention goes to that truth of existence, that which is the Self. Until then, the attention never goes, even if I talk 100,000 times about consciousness of existence, one can be wondering, "Where is this? Where is this located? Where is the 'I’?” “Observe from where the 'I' is arising", every teacher will be telling, telling, telling, but nobody will absorb it. Nobody will see it. Thoughts and thoughts keep coming, keep coming, keep coming, this is what happens. So first you have to remove the illness of the mind. The garbage of the mind needs to be cleansed, that's the effort of meditation and the technique that is taught, "just watch".
When this is removed (garbage) then you will get it. Going for celestial bodies or siddhis, is like I have told, the divine wants to give you the supermarket itself, but you end up asking for a small chocolate when you do that. He wants you to be the owner of the factory, but you are going to be the watchman of the factory. You get attracted and get stuck there, whereas you can be the owner of the factory. That's what the Self is, supreme peace. You are going for celestial bodies or siddhis or any such things, only for sake of your own happiness, so you can boast, so you can control someone. You think that you can help the world. What has happened? If at all any siddhi people have come to this world since time immemorial, why is the world like this only? Humans are like this only, nobody has changed. Nobody has achieved supreme peace. Nobody has removed all problems once and for all. The problems keep going on and on and on. Conflicts are going on and on. Wars have not come to an end. No peace has been achieved by humanity. Humanity has not learned to love and honor each other. Nothing has happened. So that's why I have told, if anybody can wave their hand and give peace to the world, peace to everyone, all creatures, that day I will consider it as a real miracle. Your efforts can bring such miracles, if everybody can meditate and achieve peace to themselves, then there is peace.
Question:
Thank you Baba. I will continue reading.
Chapter 1 Verse 11, "If you consider yourself free, you're indeed free. If you consider yourself bound, you are equally bound. The worldly proverb, 'as you think, so you become,' is indeed true."
Verse 12, "The Self is the witness, all pervasive, perfectly whole, one, actionless, free consciousness, unattached, without desire, quiet. Through illusion, it appears as though it's involved in the world."
Verse 13, "Having freed yourself from all identifications, both external and internal, and the illusion of the falsely imagined individual self, turn your attention to your true Self, one single immutable consciousness."
Shri Babaji:
To be more precise, though these verses have been told by Ashtavakra, this was His method, a strong will, and He became aware of the truth, and He advised the same to Janaka, also. That was before asking him to become quiet. So finally, mentally when you become quiet only all these things come to you as a realization. When you practice meditation, when you practice quietening of your mind, only then you will realize all these truths that have been told. Until then the mind will not give up its ego of all these things, like doer-ship and owning and all these things. The ego will always be there. Only when it meditates, meditates means when it becomes quiet, when it just watches the mind, then this thing can be achieved.
Look, even for Janaka also; in Ashtavakra and Janaka's conversation, He went on telling this to Janaka, whether he can give up by this teaching itself. He was ripe, Janaka, so he went on absorbing the teaching, and he was trying, then finally he was ready to become quiet. Then finally, Ashtavakra asked him to "stop", so he stopped in every way, mentally, he stopped. That means he had given up his ego. Then he took the command of the master. That's what Swamiji, my Guru, also used to tell, "Every day when I instruct you to sit down for meditation, and when I initiate people, I give it as a command. If only a student takes it as a command and does it.” Means a soldier, when he is commanded by the commander, he just takes it, he doesn't have a second thought at all. He has to do it as a duty, he does it, that's how he is trained to be. Like that a student gets trained by the master. In olden days when you went to a monastery, to a master, the master used to train the student to give up the ego first. As long as the ego is there, the teachings will not be absorbed at all by the students. This is what happens. He will have the ego - that needs to be given up. When he becomes a student, when he takes it as a command, then the ego goes, vanishes, and that means he is free. Free means he is free. See, everything that we have adopted in this world, we are scared of giving up, “What will happen, what will happen?” We can continue leading a normal life, we can do it. What I am talking is mentally giving up. Physically you do everything, you have a business, you have a family, you take care of everything. Nobody is asking you to give up the family or give up your job or anything. You need it. You go on doing, but mentally (you give up). This will happen only when you practice meditation. Until then this will not appear as some truth or some teaching. That's what Ashtavakra has tried to tell Janaka. It's a very tough teaching that used to be in the olden days.
Question:
Baba, You obtained nirvikalpa samadhi after five years of meditating day and night in a little room. But You've often said that people didn't see the changes, the development, that was happening the 20 years prior to that, with You being able to quiet your mind while serving your Guru. You had a very detached (mental state), You practiced that, which is what I think You were just talking about, that kind of detachment, witnessing, performing everything, but not getting involved mentally into it, or ruminating on it. So, you know, not all of us are going to be able to do tapas, but we can practice. We are all living our life, and we can practice things in the course of events of our life, which would be like what You did during your 20 years prior to finally just completing Self-Realization?
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, exactly. Very good question. Thank you for asking this question. This is the follow up for what I was talking. I could not complete that one without the question. Now the question has come and I can complete.
In those 20 years, with a strong will also, one can do this. If you are not meditating, if you are not doing a tapas, with a strong will that is the karma yoga, acceptance. Means any situation, anything that happens, just accept it. During the student days with my Guru, whatever He wanted me to do, or whatever I was supposed to do in the monastery, we went on doing without any brooding. With a strong will we surrendered to the master because we loved the master. We never questioned about His achievements. We never questioned whether He was Self-Realized or not. We never talked to Him whether he was lecturing or not, because we had both - love for Him, and reverence to Him. When the reverence was there, mentally we surrendered, and just went on doing. I went on doing, looking after mentally challenged boy, the children of devotees, feeding them, taking them anywhere they needed. Anything that I was doing, I did without any brooding, without questioning within the mind, without getting annoyed or irritated, without trying to comment on anybody else. I never called my Guru, "Why have You made all these nonsense things?" I didn't tell Him, I simply always told positively in my mind, "Oh, my Guru, my Lord, You have made me to do these things. I am sure You are keeping something of the highest for me in store. That's why You want me to undergo all these things. You are preparing me to take over the command. You are making me like a commando.” Like that, we had a positive thought and total faith in the master. We surrendered, those 20 years I prepared myself. Apart from meditating daily for six to seven hours when Swamiji was not in the station (ashram) - He would have gone traveling, all other times also, mentally, this was the time. Anything.
You see, always in everybody's life, everything will not happen according to our wishes or as we want it to happen. The world is going on, we have to adjust somewhere, we have to manage with the things (we have). If I need ten boys or twenty boys, or fifty boys, if God gives me only four boys, I have to manage with them, then there is peace. Otherwise, there is never peace and I will always be brooding, "Why haven’t ten more students not come to assist me?" So, this is what will happen. But I trained myself, accepting, “If God has made it like this, if my Guru has made it like this, it is for some purpose, for some larger purpose. He is training me to be ready one day, so the day will come that I will know what the truth is. When the truth was known, I became quiet. There was nothing to express, nothing to tell.
Question:
Baba, it sounds like what You did wasn't as important as Your mental attitude while You were doing it.
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, that's what we try to tell. Shri Krishna taught, whether you tell a lie or a truth is not as important as the purpose. Like, sometimes, I will tell – your example is very good - when I used to bring groceries to the ashram, standing in a fully packed city bus, traveling, holding two bags and one person commented, “Are you a brahmachari of a monastery?” I said, “Yes, I live in the monastery of Shivabalayogi, my Guru.” “Don't you think you are forced to do the same things you would have done had you become a householder. At home you would have done the same thing. You would have brought groceries. You would have brought vegetables. You are doing the same thing, so what is the use (purpose) for you? It is just no use for you. You would have been a householder if you had married, now also, you are a householder.” But I replied to him, “I came out of my house and joined the monastery because I like this way of life. I did not come out to escape from responsibilities or work. I'm happy to do it if the same work is there. But here the mental attitude is what is important. It is not bothering me that I have to bring groceries. It is not bothering me that I have to look after some children. It is not bothering me that I have to look after a mentally challenged boy.” So, all of you, if it doesn't bother you, you are perfectly alright, whatever you are. You might be a householder, you might be a doctor, you might be an engineer, if simply the mind doesn't get bothered, if it is quiet, then you are in the Self. If it is not quiet, if it is bothering, if you don't have peace… that is what Swamiji used to ask anybody who would argue with Him. "Hey, listen to me". He would not be as soft as me. He would say, "Hey listen, let me take a cane and hit on your head. Do you have peace? Nonsense. Then, why are you arguing all these things with me, go find your peace first, and then come to me." Like that, He would send him out. So that is the thing, as you are talking, purpose is more important than what I was doing.
Question:
Baba, there are a couple conditions you had during those 20 years. You had so much love for Swamiji that You surrendered to Him completely and Your service was spontaneous and selfless. Not everybody has that, so how can you get devoted to the path, perform karma yoga, and be selfless in your service without the quality of love? That's something You just had; You fell in love with Him immediately.
Shri Babaji:
It came very naturally. Spontaneously I just fell in love, and that took care of everything. It can happen to anybody, then when such a love comes that is natural, you will never analyze. People tell, “I love you Babaji, I love you, my Guru, everything”, and after two days they start analyzing me and then abuse me. That is not love, that was only a temporary passion. Real love - if the Guru cuts you into pieces, you will join and come back. You will not give up. Not even the Guru himself can disturb your love to him, that must be the love. If it is there, that takes care (of everything). Other than that, you should know the effect of surrender. You just surrender when you have total faith. Total faith will come when you are ready either to do it or die for it. This is also another technique, what our Guru taught. Like a soldier going into the battlefield, he will never be confused, he is not afraid, he knows he is not going to lose anything. That doesn't mean that he has to win the battle. He knows either he will do it or he will die for the country, like that. So, both are equally acceptable. In our life also, both are equally acceptable, whether I become Self-Realized or don't become Self-Realized, I'm serving my Guru, that itself is good enough. I never thought I will sit for tapas and get Self-Realized. Because that was happening; for twenty years the tapas was going on, only it was unnoticed by the world. The world notices when a beard comes or some matted hair happens, and you sit quietly for some years in a room, then they start telling “He did tapas”. Even today, many people say he did tapas for five years. They don't know that I was doing tapas all the time, twenty years also at the lotus feet of the master. That's what happened, because I had surrendered. I never bothered what will happen. I used to think, “If I have to dust my Guru's monastery, I will consider I incarnated on this earth to dust the monastery. That's fine, no problem with it.” The ego ended.
Question:
So, Baba, if you don't have that naturally… I mean, you have to have some faith to even begin to practice meditation or to serve someone. You just start, and then with experience and time it can grow into more surrender and more devotion?
Shri Babaji:
I understand - exactly. That's why, when I got a chance to teach, I tried to give clues, I tried to explain, I tried to answer questions with all my patience. Only the questions have to be sensible, then a sensible answer can come. Many times, people come and tell me, “Can I ask an uncomfortable question?” Then I have to tell, “Please be prepared for an uncomfortable answer also”. The question will bring out certain answers. Like, your questions are bringing out all things like knowledge and wisdom from me. I myself don't know how it is happening, just spontaneously it keeps coming. It is your intelligence which is working that you are able to bring out things from me. In the same way, that is how it happens. We just answer what the thing is, we try to explain. I thought, in the beginning we need to give them some confidence that there is something, “This is what it is”. That's why I try to explain to them when they ask questions. I try to explain to them, “This is the purpose of meditation, this is what you can get and you cannot get. Don't expect you will go to celestial bodies, no need. Don't expect that you will get siddhis (supernatural powers). That is not needed at all.” With some $500 you can fly at 35,000 feet. You don't have to do meditation to do these things, nonsense. That is not the thing.
A much more higher thing is there, for which only tapas… no dollars, no silver, no gold can bring that one. No shopping complex will have this thing. It is the peace, that is within you only. For this alone you have to do, because there is no other way to achieve peace, to achieve your Self-Realization of what you are, if you are interested to know before death shall claim the physical body. Arjuna was told by Krishna, "Arjuna before death shall claim thee", that's how ancient teachers explained to give a clue, to make it interesting. Death is inevitable, every human being understands, everybody knows. Then, "Arjuna before death shall claim thee. Go to the knowers of Truth". He recommended you have to go to the knowers of the Truth, to such teachers. “Surrender, sitting at their lotus feet, seeking their permission, put in intelligent questions, which can bring out intelligent answers. Adopting such methods achieve that truth for yourself.” This individual effort is known as purushartha. Every teacher has told (of its importance), whether it is Bhagavad Gita, Ashtavakra Samhita or Yoga Vasistha, whether it is me or the Guru or anybody else, that is always needed and very important. So that's how we try to give clues to people so they can understand. They can try to understand how much this is necessary. See, today, people are getting attracted to this meditation. Other than meditation, I don't give them any gold or silver or siddhis or any such promises. But yet, they are getting attracted to this meditation. They are coming. They are sitting with me. They are trying to sit for one hour and are ready to listen to me. They ask such questions, very nice, wonderful questions. They are all matured meditators that we have here in these sessions.
(End Ashtavakra Q&A)
Question:
Hello Babaji, thank You for your time. I was inspired by your opening where you said, opportunity is the best thing that can happen to you in the world? You've already answered the question, but I just wanted to expand upon it. Opportunity really is an attitude of the student, right? I mean, we want to use our daily lives, to use our workplace as a householder or working in the environment as our tapas, right? Arjuna used Krishna to the utmost degree. I mean, we're still reading about it millennia later, how he asked the teacher questions. Arjuna asked questions and Krishna guided him, like you just quoted. So my question is, how can I wake up every morning inspired and have more opportunity to live a life, a spiritual life, under your guidance?
Shri Babaji:
When you get up in the morning, once, be thankful to the Divinity that you are still alive in this physical body. That means you have got one more day. You have risen up. You have not become unconscious totally, though all night long you are unconscious. You are not sure whether you will get up in the morning or not, but you have got up now. So like that, you be grateful and understand, “This is one more day's opportunity my Lord has given me. I must utilize to the best of my ability. I must achieve the best for today.” Like that you resolve, and that is your positive attitude, that is the way you will utilize your opportunity.
Question:
Thank you so much.
Question:
I've been observing. I don't even know how to say this, space. It seems to me that all space everywhere is the same. It's the same space, but it depends on our karma, our thought forms that create, that turn the space. I mean, it doesn't turn the space, but the space seems to be something different in different places, only because of how we're thinking. But actually, the space is just space. Is that correct?
Shri Babaji:
Ah, you are telling, that's what you are thinking is space. You must understand, simply you are thinking, means that is your imagination. It need not be true; the space can be something else. At least you give the benefit of doubt for now, if you don't understand it totally. Because it is your thinking, that is why space is space. You are thinking, that is why space appears to be a void place only. Positively you take it a different way. Space is the only thing which has the quality to remain in itself. It doesn't need anything else for its existence, whereas all matter needs space for its existence. This is such an important thing; this is one thing. And space is holding the entire universe in its womb and any amount of expansion of the universe, it cannot go out of the space. It is within the space always. Like this, some beautiful points are there, if only you can think positively and try to understand. However, you don't have to believe me 100% but you have to meditate. When you meditate and reach your own mind or your real Self within you, within your body, then you will experience that as the space. Then only you will understand and realize. Until then at least try to believe me for a while and meditate for one hour. Is that okay? [laughs] If it makes any sense.
Question:
Thank you, Baba, for being with us today. Agastya read this one little section. It says, “Turn your attention to the true Self, one single, immutable consciousness.” It says ‘turn your attention’. My question is how do we turn our attention to this one true, immutable sense, consciousness?
Shri Babaji:
You see, turning the attention has to happen through the mind, not simply the naked eyes. It is the mind which has to pay attention to know anything. Even in this world also, apart from putting your eyes on me, you also have to turn the mind here on me, then only you can pay attention to me, what I am talking. This mind, if you observe, is just now preoccupied with its own imaginations. That's why millions of thoughts and visions are there in the mind. Stories and worlds are sitting there, going around. If you can remove your mind from paying attention to that imagination, that imagined world that is in your mind, then it will pay attention to Itself. Itself is that Truth, what we are talking. Mind Itself is the truth actually. Today I'm telling you, believe it. Just now, mind is paying attention to its imagination, not to Itself. To make it pay attention to Itself, you just have to watch so that the thoughts and visions can disappear. Then automatically you will see that you are paying attention to Yourself. That ability is there naturally in the consciousness.
Question:
Okay, one more thing, really quickly. I'm going to be leaving for Spain in two weeks. I'll be there for a month, and I would like to have your blessing on a good trip.
Question:
When we're watching in meditation and there doesn't seem to be thoughts, you’re just watching, and it's dark, it's blank, there's nothing there, I remember you saying, you're observing, keenly observing. Can we know this as the Self? I know it's not Self-Realization, but is this the Self?
Shri Babaji:
Yes. When there are no thoughts, it is watching itself. Simply, it has to become aware by remaining in that state - a long time practice is what is known as tapas, to make it effortlessly always in that status, what you experience for a short while.
Question:
I mean, I'm just experiencing glimpses. I keep going, then the mind starts thinking, and I get caught, and then I go back. But it was really inspiring. I heard you say “Keenly observe” and that was like the "Stop" that Ashtavakra gave King Janaka.
Shri Babaji:
Exactly, that's what it is. You are seeing but again you are slipping. You are seeing, then slipping.
Question:
OK, thank you, Baba.
Question:
My question is, why is our mind is working against us, rather than for us?
Shri Babaji:
It has become habitual. That is what in Bhagavad Gita, if you have read this sentence, "Atma is Atma's best friend and Atma is Atma's worst enemy". Often, if you see into people - human beings, let us take for example, if they are suffering, they are suffering because of their own habits. They are habitual. The mind tries to enjoy, but it doesn't know the right path, so it gets involved into a wrong path and tries to suffer and wants to receive sympathies, any such thing. It becomes habitual, going against itself. It becomes stubborn, it does not want to give up. To make it give up this stubbornness you have to apply willpower, and become stronger than that. For that you just watch in between eyebrows, that is the practice of meditation. Only your own self effort, with a strong will power. To sustain yourself, you can pray to Divinity, no problem. The grace will also come, but your effort is very much necessary, and you can achieve it one day.
Question:
Thanks Baba, and one question on that. Does food play an important role in controlling the mind?
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, definitely to a certain extent, because whatever food you intake, it has to get converted into blood, and this blood gets supplied to the brain also along with oxygen. Depending on the quality of blood it receives, the brain's reflections can become very dull, or what you call tamasic, or it can be sattvic. Watching the reflections of the brain, the mind registers in itself, and starts behaving in such a way. So generally, what we recommend is to take a lighter meal which can be easily digestible. Take care that no wind or indigestion happens in your body, then it can be very helpful for you in meditation. Also, in purifying the mind it can play a very significant role.
Question:
Hello Babaji, namaskar. My question was on something which you just touched previously, the focus in the middle of the eyebrows. Would you have any recommendation to keep a sustained awareness on the middle of the eyebrows? Because I think when we're practicing, that awareness is there, then it goes away, and then flows with the thought. Is there any recommendation which you have for us to have a sustained awareness so eventually we have that for at least an hour of meditation?
Shri Babaji:
Yes, I understand. Initially it could be a bit difficult because the eyeballs move parallelly, they don't come easily into one direction. If necessary, you can try to watch the tip of the nose for a short while. After few months, the eyeballs will raise to the level in between eyebrows. Another thing, when you close the eyes, for a while don't even bother about the location in between eyebrows. Trying to locate (that area) the mind gets confused, when eyeballs move and give a jerk. So just watch the front portion, whatever it is, whether it is dark or light or anything appearing, anything not appearing. Without bothering, if you just watch with your will power, then you can sustain that watching, taking the help of the eyeballs. Then eventually, after six months or so, you will see the changes. The eyeballs will start coming into one direction, slowly. You need to have enormous patience, that is another important point. When you are watching, don't be in a rush. Skillfully just try to watch because the watching slips when the mind runs. That watching slips away, but you have to bring it (back) again. Keep trying, have a sports inspiration, a sporting spirit, that you are playing a match. The mind is running and you are trying to bring it (back). One day you will have the upper hand, and you will become successful.
Question:
I have very strong, beautiful visions that have been going on for four or five years. I meditate sometimes two to three hours every day, because the bliss gets so strong, I cannot simply stop. It's like waves and waves and waves and time disappears. But sometimes celestial beings coming to interact with me is very very strong, and it's very difficult not to get involved sometimes. Now, it's getting better by just being the watcher of that movie, not being fascinated, not thinking I am part of a celestial story.
Shri Babaji:
Please pay attention. I understand. These celestial appearances are trying to distract your meditation, which can take you to a much higher entity called the Self. It will obstruct you, unnecessarily trying to drag you, like in the story of Homer’s Ulysses. So, you get attracted, and then you get involved, and it will drag you, suck you into this world. You have to remain concentrating in between eyebrows and try to get rid of them. You can get rid of them if you don't analyze or try to know what it is. One time you try to know, you get sucked into it. It is an illusion that has been created to distract you. This is what I would advise.
Question:
Thank you. And also, sometimes when I concentrate too much on the third eye, sometimes I cannot sleep for two months. I'm not really tired, but I get spaced out because I don't experience having deep sleep anymore. It's like I'm awake sleep all night, not needing so much sleep. But I can take naps, you know, and meditate, but it's very spacey sometimes.
Shri Babaji:
So as long as you don't feel tired and you are relaxing, it's okay, it's no problem. You can take naps sometimes.
Question:
It's okay. I work in my house with clients, and it's okay for me. I can adjust the time and stress and relaxation.
Shri Babaji:
Okay, it's okay. My blessings to you.
Question:
My question, is not reacting mentally or physically to external stimulation the same as withdrawing the senses, as quieting the mind?
Shri Babaji:
Yeah, definitely. This needs enormous practice to be effortlessly like that, to not react mentally. Whatever you react to outside, that should not reverberate in the mind. It should be something like you write on a white paper and it instantly gets erased. It should not stay in the mind to bother you, even if you need to react to a negative thing also. You just acted upon like a role in a drama, and that's it.
Question:
Thank you, Babaji,
Question:
If I'm focused between the eyebrows, how then to get into samadhi, which is beyond the body? Because for this focus to maintain I have to be aware of the body. How then to transcend the body?
Shri Babaji:
If you just watch in between eyebrows, there is no other target that is given as to what you are supposed to watch. When through the mind you are just watching, gradually the mind gives up all thoughts and visions. Because when you are just watching, you are not analyzing or making any judgments. When these two things don’t happen within the mind, then mind becomes quiet. Once it becomes quiet it gets detached from the brain's reflections, and then it will start going into samadhi, when it is totally purified once for all, effortlessly. This requires some time of practice. It will automatically happen. Your job is just to watch. So it will get delinked once it gets detached from the brain. That means you are getting detached from the body automatically, and you will experience the samadhi also. It will come naturally.
Question:
Baba, the second part of the question is, if we're not doers, it is possibly easier to understand positive and negative actions. What about when we do something negative, like drinking alcohol or behaving badly? Was this out of our reach and simply had to happen due to some karma? Does then the question of dharma and adharma, good or bad, virtue or sin all fall off?
Shri Babaji:
I would recommend, simply by a theory, it's not easy to go into this positive and negative thing and just think that ‘I am not the doer’, because it must not come in the mind. If it comes into the mind, then it will induce you to do such things. That is why side by side, you have to practice meditation also, which will purify your mind. Then the negativities will all disappear, dissolve. You will be a better matured person. You will become more compassionate, better understanding about others. You will not be selfish, and you will not go into negative activities at all, of harming others or harming yourself. This has to happen. This can happen through meditation only, just by thinking a theory or reading a book it is not easy to behave like that. You might end up behaving negatively if you are habitual. You have to give it up. At least when you practice meditation you will become a better human being, a matured person, upholding human values. This will be possible. Otherwise, if you are not giving up negativity, that means you have not meditated properly. That is very much necessary, along with reading and understanding these things.
Question:
One more Baba.
I think he's saying, humankind is the most highly possible evolved images of the absolute reality. How do such appearances arise from absolute reality? Does the absolute consciousness have power to think of beautiful or ugly things to be manifested?
Shri Babaji:
You see, ugly and beautiful are here in the human mind. What or when the ultimate truth, whether it started thinking or not, how it happened, really there is no conclusive answer. Speculations (only) can be there, because when you do sadhana or tapas, you will surpass this. You cannot go into such experiences, (because) then you will not be able to become quiet and merge with the Self. So that's what the master teaches. You have to see (understand) this so you become quiet as soon as possible, then your mind will become purified, and then you can reach the ultimate truth. Then you will realize the ultimate truth is supremely pure. It never intended to go. But in between, the missing link, where it went…
Just for example, in the Purana story, the first Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are given as Divine personalities, that means an enormous amount of consciousness arose to create. When it created, it did not get involved with the creation, but consciously remained in the Self. Thus, this Trinity got to be considered Divine personalities. But the next generations, like angels and demons, they all became insecure, power hungry, wanted power, secure power for themselves. All these things started happening. That was where the consciousness started becoming a little bit corrupted. Then generation after generation, incarnation after incarnation, by the time it came to be a human being or an animal, how much the consciousness would have been corrupted. That is what needs to be cleansed through spiritual practices, instead of going into how and why it happened. It's very difficult to say (why or how it happened). Just like early morning when you are fresh, for a while your mind is quiet, but suddenly it starts thinking. In the beginning, everybody would think of beautiful things, and happiness. But then suddenly the mind, unknown to itself, jumps into good and bad, right and wrong, ugly and bad. All these things keep happening and it gets involved into the dualities. To cleanse this only, spiritual satsangas are taught so that you can purify the mind. So that is what is important.
Question:
Last question, Baba. Is consciousness or mind evolving?
Shri Babaji:
It will evolve when it gets purified. Otherwise, it will go down, belittling itself. If it becomes more nonviolent, that means it is evolving. When it is evolving means it has to go back to the real Self, that is the ultimate truth, Divinity. Otherwise, it will belittle itself. It can go back into any other births, this happens. It needs to be purified by a practice of satsanga and meditation, only then it can evolve.
Question:
Baba, that would refer to mind wouldn't it, rather than consciousness? Does consciousness get purified?
Shri Babaji:
Yes definitely. Once it becomes consciousness, that means it is evolved, ready to go back to Self.
End of Session