Maya - the endless illusion, part 2 | In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Babaji, No.200

Register your free place for the live online meditation and Q&A with Babaji: https://www.shivarudrabalayogi.org/en/online-satsang 

Maya - the endless illusion, part 2 | In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Babaji, No.200
Recorded on 9 November 2024 with worldwide participants

0:00 Intro
0:26 Babaji comments on extract from Yoga Vasistha: "The unreal Jiva perceives the unreal world on account of the unreal influence of the unreality."
3:38 Babaji comments on extract from Yoga Vasistha: "The energy of this consciousness is able to create the entire universe and then entertaining the notion 'this is not', reduces everything to a state of void."
5:13 After the dissolution of the universe, how can that consciousness recreate that cosmic universe?
10:55 What happens to the individual soul when it merges with the Self?  Can it not come back to this creation?
13:00 Why is that in the beginning when we were one with the Self, that we could separate from that?
17:12 The concept of Virat, the cosmic person.
21:06 When the experience happens that the mind becomes purified and the seeker feels as if they are at the crown of the head.
23:28 Can Babaji recollect at what point it happened that He felt His location at the crown of the head during tapas?
24:30 After that state is reached, is it not possible to go back?
25:05 What is the force that is dragging us to the illusion?
29:03 "Manifest consciousness is the universe and manifested universe is consciousness."
31:27 What is the meaning of "it is neither real nor unreal".
34:25 'The seer the seen and the sight' - what is the role of this in the preservation of the illusion?
41:49 "Whatever is seen here or thought of 'you exist' - all that is pure consciousness alone, there has never been a reason why anything else should have come into being." 
43:55 Consciousness of inert objects or when in deep sleep.
48:59 The state of a Yogi
50:16 Fading of awareness and consciousness towards the end of a person's life.
52:32 What can one do to help someone who is nearing the end of life.
53:14 How to handle fear in the world and be more present.
55:00 How does biological reproduction of our parents create our physical existence and its consciousness?
56:11 When does a human being start to exist as a person?
56:58 How to deal with regret.
58:56 How did Babaji feel when His Guru Swamiji dropped the physical body?
1:00:05 What is the experience of deep sleep for a Realised person?

___

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Website: http://www.srby.org
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Transcript

Maya - The Endless Illusion, Part 2 | In Quest of Truth - Q&A with Babaji, No.200

Recorded on 9 November 2024 with worldwide participants.

Question: 

 Babaji, Pranams. Thank you for giving all of us an opportunity to ask You questions. So, today's topic is the continuing of the last topic that I did a few weeks ago, ‘Maya, the endless illusion’. It is based on Yoga Vasistha; all the questions are based on Yoga Vasistha only. So, to start with, Babaji, I want to read an extract from the Yoga Vasistha and if Babaji can give a comment on that? 

Shri Babaji: 

Yes. 

Same Questioner: 

So, Vasistha tells Rama, “Oh Rama, the unreal jeeva perceives the unreal world on account of the unreal influence of the unreality.” 

Shri Babaji: 

You see, ‘unreal jeeva’ is what I often mention as ‘individual imagined self’. That very thing you can understand, whereas that self does not exist at all as ‘we’, however we have imagined that we exist. Means, we would have defined ourselves like ‘I am the body’ or ‘I am Indian’, ‘I am American’, ‘I am so and so’ or ‘I am a businessman with a status’, ‘I am a man’, ‘I am a woman’, like this, hundreds, with subtle bodies we would have first imagined ourselves. Then later on, even when we come on to the spiritual path, we would imagine as if we are an individual soul – that is also not correct. 

So, that is what here in Yoga Vasistha also, Vasistha mentioning to Rama; an unreal jeeva which does not exist at all, pursuing the unreal world. So, in the dream, when you are there, you are also unreal and the dream also is unreal. But because you are unreal and in the dream, the dream appears as solid and perfect and real. In the same way, if you hit a wall with your physical body's head, it will hit you, you will feel the pain, you can be harming your head. Because this body is also part of this dream, called world. This is not the one which has come out of this dream. 

And because of this body, the consciousness is also stuck into this world as an individual imagined self. It thinks that ‘I am in the body’ or ‘I am the dweller’, anything that it would have imagined. Like this, all the imagined things which does not exist play with itself and the one really who is watching, the real existent watcher, he gets carried away. That's what is illusion. Except that real Self, nothing else really exists. But with all these imaginations, the real existing watcher gets carried away. That's what Vasistha means, talking to Rama. 

Same Questioner: 

So, the second is another extract – it is about the dissolution. Here Vasistha says, the energy of this consciousness is able to create the entire universe and then entertaining the notion, ‘this is not’ reduces everything to a state of void. 

Shri Babaji: 

I also tell that when the mind imagines, a thought appears in the mind. Watching that thought, the mind forgets itself. Itself is that space that is there. Instead, it gets attracted to the thought that has appeared in the mind, due to mind's imaginations, and gets carried away with that thought and gets involved with that thought, further analyzing, making any judgment and thus creating another thought. In the same way, this universe also has been created by the consciousness by which it does not exist in that form. Yet, when it imagines within itself, in the space itself, that started appearing - the matter, the universe. Then it got carried away, it forgot about itself. So that is all the teaching of Self-Realization, ‘Meditate and know your Self’ – all these are about this sentence of teaching only, what Vasistha also has been talking to Shri Rama. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. So, in this illusion, Babaji, talking about the dissolution of the entire universe, creation, after that dissolution, how can that consciousness recreate that cosmic universe? 

Shri Babaji: 

Recreate means, within that universe it can go on creating universe after universe. That is never ending. That's what in the simple way I explain; when one thought appears, the mind gets involved into that thought, thinking that to be a reality and thus creates another thought by analyzing, “This is good”, “This is bad”. With that bad, that matter also becomes a bad. Or when it thinks, “No, this can be good”, the matter also becomes good. That is how in this world, one man's food is another man's poison. Something could be very important to one person; the same thing may not be important to another person. Everybody, all souls develop their own viewpoint. Based on it, they create a thought within a thought, a thought within a thought, a dream within a dream, a dream within a dream, like that, go on creating. 

Also, I have given the example, in some of the temples in India, if anybody has seen, they would have kept two mirrors, one in front of that. This is the philosophical teaching of illusion. If you just look into one mirror, hundreds and hundreds of mirrors you go on watching and you go on counting, the mirror, mirror, mirror is there. However, there are no such many mirrors at all. There is one mirror here, another mirror here. And both are creating simply illusions. So that is how the individual soul also goes on creating its own world. 

The higher consciousness created this universe and the individual also dreams in imagination. Mind keeps going into imagination and builds its own world. Like it goes on creating universe and inside that another universe, inside that another universe. So, life after life. So many lives would have simply passed by. Imagine, so mind boggling it could be; how many worlds you would have seen, how many worlds you would have created. Generally, people who pursue or perceive the different lives being reborn or the previous lives, they can imagine while alive in this world of only this world. They imagine, any person dies, they will come back and be born in this world only, within our own relatives, if we imagine. That is one person's perception, but that need not be the truth. 

Illusion is so vast, an amazing energetic power. It can be once a person dies, that person could create any world, anything, then and there itself. This also Yoga Vasistha talks about this. Then and there itself the mind spins and creates another world for itself. Like that, world inside the world goes on creating. To stop this only, we have to understand the practice of meditation. The highest technique that Swamiji obtained by the manifestation of Lord Shiva, who came as a Jangama Sage and gave Him this technique. Swamiji sincerely did it. He said, “When the Jangama Sage asked me to watch in between eyebrows by keeping the eyes closed, I closed the eyes and just went on watching. And just Samadhi occurred.” Samadhi means, all the worlds that had been created inside, they all subsided and dissolved, finished. So, one Self, single Self, the Atman was there, that He became Self-Realized. That's what one has to do. And that is the reason meditation is taught. 

Silently just watch in between eyebrows, don't analyze, don't bother, don't chant anything, don't think about anything, neither good nor bad. In this world when you live, it is a different thing. Good also is there, bad also is there; you can make your judgment, but that will be only for sake of this world, not for yourself. Not for your perception, this you have to understand. Only for sake of this world, you have to analyze and make judgments, “This is a good thing, this is a bad thing, this is healthy for me, this is not healthy for me”. All these type of things keep happening, but you don't have to take it seriously into your real Self. 

Then you get involved inside also, you build up another world. The practice of meditation enables you… you behave in this world, whatever that is needed, good or bad. If necessary, you can show even anger also to defend yourself, but however, within yourself you don't entertain anything. That's what is Ramana Maharishi’s “Even if a Yogi is gossiping a lot…” means even if He appears to be involving in the world, “…He is the ever silent one.” He is quiet, in himself, in Itself. Thus, one single Self existing in Itself. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you Babaji. So, understanding this concept of this cosmic dissolution and creation of our own mind, then what happens to that consciousness, to that individual soul when it reaches, it merges with the Self and achieves Self-Realization? That soul that consciousness cannot come back to this creation, it is forever there?

Shri Babaji: 

Yeah, you see, there are different rivers in the world. You take some water from one river, say that river's name is Krishna. Another river is Ganga. You take water. Then you mix both the waters in another one vessel. Then how will you recognize which water is belonging to Ganga, which water belonging to Krishna River? When they existed, they existed as if different rivers, but when they become one, it was one. 

That's how when a Self-Realized soul merges with the Self, it is one single Self, one Divinity. However, for Bhakti Marga people, I would like to assure, say, for example, Swamiji, Shivabalayogi. If you have faith in the name of Shivabalayogi, if you worship, if you pray, if you do the Aradana, the same Divinity will manifest in the form of Shivabalayogi, bless and grace upon you. This is different of the Bhakti Marga. But once it has merged with, there is no individual soul, “This is the Shivabalayogi soul”, “This is Ramakrishna's soul”, there are no such souls. It cannot exist like that one. Once it has merged with the Self, it is the Self, one Divine. This is my opinion. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. So, why is it that in the beginning when we were there in the Self, we could separate from that? And then when we reach the Self-Realization, once you again merge with that, it's not possible to get separated again. So, why is this difference there? 

Shri Babaji: 

That's because of the energetic force that is in the Self, when it started creating and got carried away by its own creation. Imagine, just like you are sitting in your drawing room comfortably on a sofa, just watching, participating in this zoom. Nothing has happened to you, you are perfectly alright in that body. However, as you go on listening to me, the question and answers or anything, unknown to you an imagination might occur within you, in your mind. And then you might get carried away and you are likely to forget that you are just sitting in your drawing room and you are listening to the answers of Babaji and questions of Javier, all things you might forget and you can create your own world. So, these type of things happen. 

Many times, students have mentioned when I have told a certain story also or any such thing, their mind starts building up, such building or such imaginations, everything starts occurring. So, this is what happens. So, that is how, due to this imagination, it gets carried away and forgets. Means, what you have to understand, the Self is intact. Nothing happens to the Self. It doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't go into any other world, it doesn't give. But simply, in imagination, in creativity only it creates a world and gets to see that world. In that world it gets to see itself also as a character and experiences all good, bad, happiness, unhappiness. This goes on and on and on till you realize your real Self. 

That is what is realizing your real Self, getting rid of all these created imaginations, going back to the Self in consciousness. That consciousness, when it's totally purified, it merges back. Purified means when you are watching the movie, when your mind gets carried away with the movie, it becomes corrupted. It starts thinking of all the good and bad of the movie; some people might like a villain, some people might like a hero, some people might like this, some other might like that. All these things might keep happening. Finally, thus the mind gets corrupted and starts considering that movie to be a reality. 

When a Guru comes and helps, “Come on, you are just watching a movie. Nothing has happened, you are perfectly alright. Come, open your eyes and see, you are just watching the movie”, then, when the consciousness comes back and sees, is able to feel the Self, then in a moment that consciousness would have become purified. So, in the same way, through the practice of this meditation, your mind, your consciousness becomes totally purified. That's what it is. People have been told so many theories unnecessarily, making them to go into hundreds of further imaginations. Nothing is needed. First catch hold of the mind, purify your mind, cleansing of your mind. Cleansing – how does it get cleansed? If it becomes quiet, if it gives up all its imaginations, judgments, it becomes quiet. That's all that is needed. Then it is purified, then it settles into the Self. That's what the teaching is. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. Now, I want to go to one concept that Yoga Vasistha talks about, the cosmic person or ‘viraj’. They say it is the movement of consciousness with a gravitational force. So, can Babaji talk a little bit more about this viraj or cosmic person, the concept of this?

Shri Babaji: 

Virat? What is the word? 

Same Questioner: 

Yes, viraj or cosmic person the Yoga Vasistha says. 

Shri Babaji: 

You see, energy. Energy that is inseparable of the consciousness. I have told that mind itself is made up of consciousness and energy. The Self is made up of supreme energy and supreme consciousness. The consciousness supreme also has the gravitational force. So that enables the mind to spin with its energetic force, then it becomes creative and it creates its own self as a separate cosmic personality, whereas it doesn't exist in such a way. Then it forgets about itself and starts considering that as its own real self. So that is how it is due to this gravitational force. Inside the consciousness only all is there. It is present in the Self. The Self is such an energetic force and that energy also… 

This gravitation means, another example; say you exist as a human being in your mind. So, this mind in imagination has come out of the Self. The Self is the supreme consciousness and supreme energy. If you put in effort to cleanse your mind to a certain distance, then it comes to the magnetic field of gravitational force of the Self. After that, the Self sucks the self, this individual self back into Self. This process happens during the practice of tapas. When the consciousness of an individuality totally becomes purified, it gets detached from the brain's reflections. Means, it is slowly getting detached step by step from its own illusions. It goes back in the same way, same way, that type of thing. Just like a tree going back to the seed, seed going back to the five elements, the body going back to five elements, five elements going back to the... like that, gravitational pull. It goes back and back and back and back and back. 

Then after you keep meditating, the seeker feels as if one is here [touching top of head] when it is totally purified. That's what the ancient teachers said as the ‘sahasrara kamala’, ‘thousand petals lotus’. Means, when you feel you are here, then the mind is totally purified. Only then that is possible for a long time when you feel. Not for that for a moment… Many people just by reading or listening to a theory, they start claiming they had this experience, they had that experience. They will cheat themselves. They must do sadhana to purify the mind once for all. Then when they feel it here, that means the mind is blossomed. Blossomed means purified. So, then it starts getting sucked by the Self. The Self draws it back. And this mind, consciousness gets absorbed into the Self. This is what happens. That is the gravitational pull that Vasistha might be talking. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. And that experience that Babaji says should not be confused with any worldly experience. That real experience that we feel here [touching top of head] that only happens in tapas, that is just before the merger happens or in which stage is that experience? 

Shri Babaji: 

Just before the samadhi occurs, just before the samadhi occurs. Long time tapas – means I have already told, when one is able to keep the mind quiet and single pointed for more than 8 to 10 hours in a stretch, like that several years when you do that one. Practice is required – long. We generally don't talk this. We don't want to dishearten people. They should meditate. Somewhere, something, one day it will come. No need to worry why it's not happening today itself. Because people are always in a rush. They come back with another question, they come back with another question, “I am getting these vibrations. I am getting this thing,” I have to encourage them so that they continue meditating, they have to go. Simply if I tell, “You have a long way to go”, they might feel disappointed and lose hope. That need not be. Never lose hope, never look back. Keep doing one hour every day, keep doing. One day you will gain that capacity. 

First, just keep reading the whole day and you will be able to get through the examination. One day you will also reach university and you will be able to do some research work, all things will be possible. Keep doing, keep doing. Simply don't always be in a rush. Just like wanting an instant coffee; you order and until the time the coffee comes, we lose patience, “Oh, the coffee has not yet been served, the coffee has not yet been served.” You must have patience. Patience is very important. Then you will be able to feel all this gravitational pull, everything. Different terminologies are used, that’s all. In scientific, astronomical terminologies, gravitational pull, cosmos is what is the word that you are asking. It is the same thing. Magnetic force, that is in the Self. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. Can Babaji recollect when Babaji was doing tapas, at what time Babaji really started feeling that thing, like He was here [touching top of head]?

Shri Babaji: 

Exactly difficult to recall at what time there, means how to tell? So, that much only I remember, that one time I felt. This much only I remember, just before going into Samadhi, probably. Then afterwards… means, how I could tell this, till then you have the location of the body and where you are, something is there. After this, you lose location of yourself, where you exist and where you are. Surroundings and the body, everything is lost there. So, you cannot point out any location, any time. Probably you would have crossed the time and space barrier by then. That's what happens. So, it's impossible to tell what it is. 

Same Questioner: 

And Babaji, once you reach that state, it's not possible to go back? After that, you will be already there? Or the ego is there?

Shri Babaji: 

Until you lose that ‘I’, you have to hold on to that one. And then to allow it to happen also, you need patience. If you don't allow it to happen, if you are in a rush to come and claim and do these things, then you will lose that one. So, silently you must hold on to that, and just carry on, allow it to happen. 

Same Questioner: 

And Babaji, is there any other force? One force is dragging us to the Self, but it seems that another force is dragging us to the illusion. So, what is that force dragging us to the opposite side? 

Shri Babaji: 

The same force that is present in the Self. Self has created an illusion by simply believing. Say for example, you have a friend. You believe you friend, means you put your consciousness of faith in that person. Unknown to you, psychologically, you are drawn there. That is your own force you have kept, and you become attached. And even if that person misbehaves also, you will remain attached. You don't want to find any faults. Particularly if it is a blood relation of any such thing dearest to you, then you will overlook. All such things keep happening, keep happening. 

So, this is what that cosmic force. You have put your own force into that, and that has become so powerful just now because it has drawn you a long distance from your real Self. That's why you feel weak in front of the illusion. But once you are determined. For that determination only Adi Shankara talks of vairagya. Detachment means the firm conviction that this is impermanent and illusion. Illusion means, this cannot give me a permanent happiness. This has to come into the deep layers of the consciousness of the individuality. Then only it picks up. Then this cosmic force of the illusion force loses its effect anymore. It cannot fool you anymore. 

Your brain's reflections cannot fool you anymore once you have a firm conviction about the impermanence of the universe or, you fall in love with the Self, the Divinity, either way. So, when one increases, it takes care of the other. Say you get beaten up in a tennis match, then you go back and practice more. The opponent was strong, so he defeated you. You go on and practice day in and day out. So, you practice and you come back with fresh coaching and all the techniques you learn. Again you come back. You get defeated. You go back. Again you practice and come back. One day when you come, thoroughly that you are, you can become the champion. You can defeat your own illusion. That is how it's a dual battle between your own illusion and your mind. 

I always tell when the meditation people tell “It is so torturesome, millions of thoughts, I cannot meditate”. Don't worry, it's a dual battle. This battle, you should enjoy the battle like a sport. He is hitting, you hit, he is hitting, you hit, don't give up. So, like that you can get defeated. But don't give up the fight. You come back again prepared. Like that, that type of enthusiasm is needed. Then you achieve the meditation's peace within you. I'm just telling for educational purpose an example, using these terminologies. I hope it will not be confusing for anybody. Simply you need to be determined that you want that peace. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you Babaji. One more quote that I think Babaji also has many times explained. In Yoga Vasistha it says, “Manifest consciousness is the universe, and manifested universe is consciousness”. 

Shri Babaji: 

Yeah, you see, whatever has manifested within your mind is nothing but your own mind. Everything is the mind, raw material is mind only. So that thing that has been created within your mind, that matter cannot go out of your mind. It always remains within your mind only. In the same way, whatever is created, it remains in the cosmos, space only. That is what is addressed to you as ‘Brahmanda’; the imagined absoluteness, that which is in the absolute. So that is what is Brahmanda, Akasha, the sky. Then it gets converted into Self when it becomes Self again. 

So, the things that are created cannot go out. So that's what Vasistha is mentioning here. Everything that is created is within the consciousness. It is the form of consciousness only. That's why even in Upanishads they talk that this universe is nothing but Divinity which has come from the absolute. Remember the prayer of ‘Purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudachyate purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavashisyate’. This world is also absolute. This universe. Because this is the form of the absolute only. This has appeared within the absolute only. If tomorrow this impermanent absolute is not going to be there, it would have merged into that absolute, which is a permanent entity. That is the meaning of this sloka. That's how it happens. This is what is the answer for your question in my experience and opinion. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. In Yoga Vasistha, Vasistha also refers to one thing that Babaji many times also recalls, about the truth the meaning of, ‘It is neither real nor unreal’. What does this mean? 

Shri Babaji: 

The actual truth has no relative existence. That's what you have to understand. Only one single Self exists. When a certain thing has no relative existence, it is impossible to define it. You cannot give a criteria and make anybody understand what it is. Depending on your attitude, it may appear as if it exists. It may appear as if it does not exist. The space. It is there, and it is not there. To one viewpoint, it may be just a void place and nothing. In their criteria in the mind, they might simply consider this is nothing. To another, one who applies the wisdom, “Oh, this space is not an ordinary thing. It exists in itself.” 

The space does not need anything else for its existence. Whereas totally all matter, all universe, everything that exists needs space for its existence. It has appeared in the space. It will always remain in the space. Even if it is not there, it will go back to the space only. That's what is, ‘It is there, it is not there’ as Vasistha also tells. It appears to be there. So final truth, the real Yogi never tries to define what the final truth is. He simply tries to use the nearest, giving a clue, nearest imagination to inspire and make the student understand so that if the student on his or her own choice wants to practice and go for that, can go. 

For that the Guru gives this clue and tells, “This is my opinion. Now you practice and you achieve that truth to yourself. And then you tell me your own opinion.” Like, many times I have told to simplify further - this room is there. You can call it either that “This room is filled with space” or you can call it “This room is void with space”. Either way, anything can be there depending on your attitude. The glass is filled with space or is void with space. So, that is how absolute is zero, zero is absolute. Both have no beginning and no end. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. So now, one thing that is in the philosophy in Yoga Vasistha, Babaji also says about ‘the seer, the scene, and the sight’. So, what is the meaning of that and the role of that in this preservation of this illusion? 

Shri Babaji: 

A thing can be defined or perceived only in duality. An ignorance is there as long as a difference is there – “I need to know.” What? Actually, if it is that “I need to know my Self”, it doesn't happen at all. There is no definition. If I only exist, nothing else exists. If something else exists other than the ‘I’, then that ‘I’ needs to know that. So that is how theory of relativity here also is working. The one single Self has no definition. It is beyond, because it only exists. Is that the question exactly? Have I answered or you need to know more? 

Same Questioner: 

Like for example, what is the scene, the sight and the seer? The object, the experiencing of seeing and then the one who is...?

Shri Babaji: 

As long as one wants to know, and there is another thing other than that one who wants to know, then this person is the seer, and the scene is the one that he wants to see. So, this is there. This is what generally humans and everybody understands and visualize. Even when we talk of Self-Realization also, immediately people try to imagine and it's not possible to understand. They perceive in such a way that ‘I’ and ‘I need to know something’. But actually a realization happens when that ‘I’ also disappears. When that ‘I’ also disappears, it disappears when it understands “This was only an imagination”. 

Just like the gatekeeper, when he understands “I am not the owner”, when the owner comes, he will disappear as the owner. Something like that, just an example for educational purpose I am telling. The seer and scene. Here the seer goes on looking, that “I have to see, I have to see”. That's why in this meditation technique, Swamiji always used to tell, “Do not try to have any imagination about the Ultimate Truth and that there is something that you have to see. Simply meditate and know your Self.” Simply meditate means you become quiet, you become quiet. Then you simply become quiet and you are there. That is you. It is not a separate entity that you have to see. 

Thus, when you become Self-Realized, only you disappear as the seer and the scene also disappears. The other object is not there because object is always limited. It cannot be the absolute. So, thus it also has to disappear, only then… That is what is crossing the time and space barrier. When you go, then the Realization occurs, “This is the truth”. This is what happens in Samadhi also. Seer and the scene both disappears. 

Another example also I will tell, you see. You are a student, and I am a Guru. Let us take it. As long as you imagine that you are a student, you will call me also as a Guru. If the student disappears, who will call me a Guru? If there is no student, there is nobody to call me a Guru. And I also don't consider myself as a Guru because I don't have any student at all. That is how the seer and scene both disappear. Here, disciple and a Guru both have disappeared, only one single Self simply exists. That is beyond all definitions. What is it? 

For this I have always told, nobody knows what this universe or world is. When they come across a thing, instantly they name it. That name is born out of imagination – depending on the culture of the subject, either science or spirituality, they use such terminology that is needed to communicate and understand. So, I have to name. If I have to announce “I have found a new planet”, I name it, otherwise how will I tell? “I found a planet.” “Where is it? How is it?” “I don't know anything for that because it has no name”. “No name means where is it?” “I don't know where it is.” Such a thing cannot happen. They need to know. For relativity they use the imagination. But in truth nobody knows what the truth is. This is an appearance. The world is an appearance. Our own body is an appearance. Everything we have imagined for sake of our own communication, understanding in this world. We have named it as ‘apple’. We actually don't know what it is. We have called it a fruit with a criteria. So, everybody calls it a fruit. Then it is acceptable. Then you forget, you don't even bother whether it is true or not. You simply take it in good faith. It is apple. It is the fruit. If I come and tell, “No, this is Divinity” –

 because I want to imagine Divine in that. You want to imagine only apple in that. Then there will be conflict if we don't agree with each other. I want to accept it is Divine. You tell that “No, it is only a stone.” For you it is only a stone. For me it is Divine. But both have used our own imaginations for sake of understanding and perception. Perceiving like that. But finally when Self-Realization occurs, there is neither Divinity nor devotee. There is neither anybody who realized, neither there was anything that was realized. That is how – this could be mind-boggling. I would appeal to all of you not to bother much about this. Practice meditation. One day you will be able to understand and know. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you Babaji, and then to finish with the topic, one extract from Yoga Vasistha. It says, “Whatever is seen here or thought of ‘you exist’, all that is pure consciousness alone. There has never been a reason why something else should have come into being”. 

Shri Babaji: 

In the mind, things are there. Water could be there, ocean could be there, anything could be there. It has simply come into existence because the mind imagined. There is no reason why it should be there. Because you don't need that for your existence, for your happiness, for anything you really don't need it. Simply you have imagined, thinking that could give you happiness. Because of that only you imagine. Otherwise, you wouldn't have imagined. You simply forgot about yourself that you are already in peace and you started imagining, thinking that you will get peace, and you lost your track. You lost the thread. 

So, that is what He is trying to explain. There is no reason why it should be for our peace and happiness. But this is a very higher teaching. I don't want to confuse further by talking on this point unnecessarily. It's better to practice meditation and you need to raise your capability to understand. Then one day you will be able to understand this also. That's what Vasistha also tells Rama, “When you achieve Samadhi, on your own you will understand. Or at that time if I explain, then you will understand.” There is so much to understand, all this work of the mind and its consciousness, illusions and its imaginations, creativity, right? 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. So, that's all for the topic. I think we can open for the participants to ask questions? 

Shri Babaji: 

Yes, please, yes. 

Question: 

Pranams, Babaji. Babaji on the same topic, reading Yoga Vasistha, Sri Rama asked, “What is the consciousness in inanimate objects, like rocks or mountains?” and Sage Vasistha explained it as, “As long as psychological limitation and conditioning remains in the heart even in the subtle seed state, it should be regarded as the deep sleep state. It gives rise to rebirth. Even if a state of tranquillity is experienced and even when the mind appears to be self-absorbed, it is an inert state and is the source of unhappiness.”

Shri Babaji: 

Yeah, you see, if you observe in this world, generally, whichever has a certain type of brain, we try to call it as living species. For plants also science has proved it has life, this thing. But there are so many inert, like the rocks and other things. It doesn't communicate in any way. It doesn't move and behave with everybody in any such way. So, that's where, just for sake of understanding, just like when you go to deep sleep, your body appears to be inert. You are unaware of the surrounding and you cannot communicate anything because you are deeply asleep. You don't even have any dreams and you don't react to anything also. If anybody does anything to your body also, you cannot react. 

So, somewhat like that, giving example, Vasistha talks that has to be considered like that. Simply because it is inert, it doesn’t mean the consciousness has become Self-Realized. This I talk about; when in deep sleep, mind has become unconscious because brain has gone into deep sleep. It has nothing to reflect. When it has nothing to reflect, mind has nothing to catch or register. That is why it has become unconscious of the surroundings or this world. That's why temporarily, it appears to be in happy state. But it is not totally purified. It is holding its imaginations in the subconscious state. That needs to be purified; only then it merges with the Self. Till then, any moment a brain starts reflecting, it gets up from that sleep, the mind again gets drawn to the brain's reflection and becomes one with this world's illusion. 

So, that is why simply by going into sleep, one cannot be considered as a Self-Realized master. A person gets Self-Realized by remaining keeping the brain alert, then simply watches. Watches means trying to stop the mind not to go into any imaginations, not to accept any reflections of the brain also, not to get carried away, not to register anything as a truth, just watch. That's what is the meaning. Then, in due course of time eventually, when the mind becomes totally purified, then only the merger happens. That is the Self-Realized state. 

Till then, it is either swapana, sushupthi. Sushupthi also is not 100% Self-Realized state. It is a deep sleep. There is no dream also. You don't know anything that's happening. But when you get up, you start feeling that you are sleeping deeply, you are there. You did not disappear. That ‘I’ has to disappear and become one with the Self. For that, you have to do meditation. That's why we always teach. You must have taken sufficient rest and try to take care that you keep the brain alert. Brain needs to be healthy and alert. Then only you can purify the mind. The spiritual process is a natural exercise, where you purify your mind and achieve Self-Realization and Supreme Peace without harming the health of the brain; it is very necessary. Otherwise, rock also, we could have considered as a Self-Realized. When we worship the rock, we pour our bhava, our feeling into that, considering the Divine, the deep Self that is all pervaded, not the individual consciousness. So, that type of thing is what Vasistha is trying to tell in my opinion. 

Same questioner: 

Babaji, I understand. So, I am just trying to reiterate, this means that, avoiding the reference of rock now, but if somebody is meditating, they might feel a feeling of tranquillity or be in a state of in equilibrium. But that's not the ultimate state. So, there are few stages to keep going ahead, ahead, ahead, till the time mind is completely purified and has the awareness of Self?

Shri Babaji: 

At all times it has to be that awareness. That's what Ramana Maharshi said, “Even if a Yogi is gossiping a lot, He is the ever silent one. In His consciousness He’s totally silent and in the Awareness of the Self. He might be mechanically doing just like any ordinary person, He might be eating some food, He might be talking to anyone, He might be joking, cracking a joke, any such thing could be happening. But He is the ever silent one. And this is very difficult to perceive in another person, what a Self-Realized Master means. You have to have faith only. With the faith only, you try to learn and go on. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. 

Question: 

Pranams, Babaji. Nice to see you. So, I've been back to caretaking for my grandfather again. He's 91. I had been gone for a few months and after returning, I was very surprised to see how drastically his awareness and consciousness seems to be fading. And I was wondering, does this happen at the end of life because that particular ego is starting to lose its connection to the world? 

Shri Babaji: 

Yeah, as the brain and the body organs are slowly what you call failing its health, slowly, the mind is unable to be performing in a normal way and doesn't make this body also to perform in a normal way. So, it starts losing the consciousness, that changes the body's behaviour pattern. Different illness names are all there, it could be Alzheimer's, these type of things could be entering because the brain's health is also failing. So, that's what then the ego. But the ego is present in the mind eventually. Before this ill health happens to the body, that's why we advise one has an opportunity to purify the mind. 

Same question: 

And with all respect, could dementia kind of be like when a person, maybe their prarabdha is up, but something is keeping them to this world? So, the connection is not how it should be. I mean, respectfully speaking, is that kind of what happens? 

Shri Babaji: 

Yes. 

Same Questioner: 

Okay. Thank you. That gives me a better understanding. And what can I do to make him more comfortable with you all this? Because the confusion seems to get him very uncomfortable. 

Shri Babaji: 

You can sit and try to communicate whatever possible, or above that, you can pray. Try to meditate near him, try to pray; something if that consciousness is able to absorb which can make it peaceful, a little bit also peaceful, that will be beneficial when it attains next incarnation. 

Same Questioner: 

Subtle vibrations. 

Shri Babaji: 

Yeah, that's what help another person can do. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji. 

Question: 

Pranam Baba. I have kind of a blending of practical and spiritual. So, I'm in America, and we've had an election that will take away probably a lot of people's rights, like minorities and the environment. And myself as an LGBTQ+ person. So, the people I know, including many spiritual practitioners, it's like how to handle this? You know, do we just put our heads in the sand, pretend we're in a cave meditating? What do we do walking in the world to deal with their own fear and trepidation? And maybe to help others, because people here, many are very like paralyzed, not knowing what to do and just sitting in fear. So, do you have any recommendations of blending that spirituality and our meditation to be more aware in the present moment? 

Shri Babaji: 

Have self-confidence and wherever you are, try to meditate. Simply going into a cave itself will not solve all problems. So, if you have a home, if you have a life, within that you try to sit down and meditate for one hour. So, that will make you more mature and would help you to come out of any confusion. Then you can understand what you can do. So, you have to work out to take care of yourself. So, when your mind is clear, then you will be able to perform such a duty better. For that you meditate wherever you are. You don't have to go to a cave. Any such thing is not necessary. 

Same Questioner: 

Okay. Thank you, Baba.

Question: 

I hope I'm not going to ask any stupid questions. I was reading the Yoga Vasistha about 10 years ago, and this question occurred to me. How does biological reproduction by our parents create the experience of our physical existence and its consciousness? 

Shri Babaji: 

That's because the consciousness gets stuck with the brain's reflections. And that consciousness, because of its imagination, creativity, it creates a body for itself in the incarnation. And the brain and its quality also, everything depends. It's health, everything depends based on that one. That is why we tell, when a person is born, they bring a basic nature from the previous lives, based on that, their observation power, understanding capacity. All these things vary from person to person. What, perhaps, a great scientist like Einstein understood, others may not have understood. It all depends, it varies from person to person. 

Same Questioner: 

Thanks, Babaji. And my second question is, do you have an opinion on when you think a human being actually starts to exist as a person while it is a foetus in the female's womb? I’m asking, because of the abortion debate. 

Shri Babaji: 

I don't have this knowledge actually. In my opinion, when the baby comes out of the womb and the brain starts developing, only then the consciousness gains the awareness of the surroundings. Before that, there cannot be any awareness of any surroundings. It won't have any awareness that it's in the womb till it is not born. This is my opinion. 

Same Questioner: 

Thanks Babaji, Pranams. 

Question: 

I have two questions. First question is about regret. What are your views about that? 

Shri Babaji: 

So, regret is born out of mind's imaginations, a guilty feeling. If you had committed any mistakes, then you regret. You just regret so that you rectify, so that you don't repeat the same mistakes again. You don't have to keep on feeling guilty again and again. This is what I would advise. If you regret that you shouldn’t have done it, that's well and good. But at least then you have to look for the future. 

Same Questioner: 

Okay, just extending on my first question. For example if I regret not going to that place back then, when all my friends did, what would your views be about that? 

Shri Babaji: 

So you don’t go to that place if you don't like it, stay away. If you regret..

Same Questioner: 

But if you wanted to go, but you couldn't go, for example.

Shri Babaji: 

If you couldn’t go, forget about it, don't regret, because if you keep regretting, you cannot simply help. Just by regretting, you cannot help anything. Either you should be able to go, if you are unable to go, accept it, it's okay. Then only you will have peace. Otherwise, there will be loss of peace for you. 

Same Questioner: 

And meditation would kind of overcome that?

Shri Babaji: 

Meditation will help you to achieve peace and acceptance much better. Because if it's beyond your capability to go back there, there is no point in worrying and losing your own peace, you have to accept it. Then if you practice meditation, you will know that truth about yourself, you can achieve peace, all these things will be possible. 

Same Questioner: 

And my second question is about bereavement. I’ve thought about this question for quite a while. When Swamiji died, of all the 20 years of learning that you got from Him, how did you feel when He died? Did you feel sadness? Did you think meditation helped your bereavement to overcome? I just wanted to know about your experience about bereavement. 

Shri Babaji: 

Swamiji had trained me well that it was only the body that disappeared. And Swamiji was not that body all. That body was not the all that was Swamiji. Swamiji was all pervaded Divinity for me. So, I never felt that Swamiji has gone away. Then I went into Tapas also. Of course, that helped me to feel much better always. For this, Swamiji before dropping His body, He had trained. He had spoken to me a lot. He had helped me to do meditation. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you, Babaji.

Question: 

Pranams Babaji, can you hear me?

Shri Babaji: 

Yes, I can.

Same Questioner: 

I wanted to understand the deep sleep that you explained. What I understood is that if we are in a deep sleep and we get up, we know that “I was in a deep sleep and I feel good”. But how would this experience be if the Realization has happened? 

Shri Babaji: 

If the Realization has happened, for such a person the consciousness is always aware of the Self. It doesn't lose. It doesn't get involved into further imagination. 

Same Questioner: 

So, in the deep sleep, it would still be aware that the Self is in deep sleep?

Shri Babaji: 

Yes, it doesn't matter for a Self-Realized whether He goes into deep sleep, dream state or in the awakened state, all are same. 

Same Questioner: 

Thank you. Thank you Babaji.

End of Session